John Komnenos is one hell of a badass. Not many other people can talk down to and berate a king.
And All Nations Shall Gather To It - Volume I: The Abode of Peace
- Thread starter Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)
- Start date
Hmm -- wonder if Theoderic of Flanders, Conan the not-so-barbarian and Theobald of Champagne will end up with fiefs in Armenia due to their association with the Rhoman armies (or perhaps the Serbs will get some land -- the Turks should dread the combination of Serb and Armenian lol).
And a wild Zengi is spotted! Wonder what he'll be getting up to in the aftermath of the Armenian theatre.
And a wild Zengi is spotted! Wonder what he'll be getting up to in the aftermath of the Armenian theatre.
Great campaign.
Maybe after the Near East map of @Cattette, we could have a map of Second Crusade campaigns in this region.
Maybe after the Near East map of @Cattette, we could have a map of Second Crusade campaigns in this region.
Skallagrim
Banned
I am curious how the Kingdom of Georgia is going to react to these events. Demetrius I wasn't on the level of his father, David IV, but he was a capable monarch who booked some serious victories. I don't think that he'd fail to exploit this situation. I'd expect him to ally with the Byzantines quite explicitly and to join in on the capaign-- both because it can get him some of the spoils, and because voluntarily being a Byzantine ally makes it far less likely that his kingdom will later be forcibly turned into a Byzantine vassal. For the Bazantines, it would be another step in the logical long-term goal of hemming in Islam completely. That is: by ultimately crushing Shirvan, reaching all the way to the Caspian Sea, and thus gaining control over Baku in the name of Christendom. They could limit Islamic autority to south of the Aras River. (I would see an alliance with the Rus paying off in that regard as well, because they were repeatedly involved in the struggles of the former Khazar lands during this period, and Shirvan was a hated enemy of theirs in this regard.)
All this would also mean that Georgia would be better off, which adds another strengthened ally to the eventual "try to beat back the Mongols" campaign. I understand @galileo-034's well-reasoned points in this regard, but I continue to maintain that there are plenty of wealthy targets for the Mongols, and that if the going gets increasingly tough for them on a certain periphery, they will be increasingly likely to cease that avenue of expansion and seek success elsewhere. The Caucasus, the Eastern Anatolian mountains and the Syrian desert are excellent barriers that can help to yield the "allied Christian powers" an Ain Jalut-type victory.
All this would also mean that Georgia would be better off, which adds another strengthened ally to the eventual "try to beat back the Mongols" campaign. I understand @galileo-034's well-reasoned points in this regard, but I continue to maintain that there are plenty of wealthy targets for the Mongols, and that if the going gets increasingly tough for them on a certain periphery, they will be increasingly likely to cease that avenue of expansion and seek success elsewhere. The Caucasus, the Eastern Anatolian mountains and the Syrian desert are excellent barriers that can help to yield the "allied Christian powers" an Ain Jalut-type victory.
I'm not saying there can't be a victory, but that all in all: Ain Jalut ain't Ain Jalut without a dead Mongke Khan.
At some point it becomes a feature of the Mongol system, not a bug, that all their 'distant campaigns that went wrong' become 'distant campaigns that end expansion' through succession crises.
Oh boy, they managed to drag Zavida into their party! By this point, all his boys had been born as per OTL (Nemanja, his youngest, born in 1113), so there's no worry about them somehow getting wiped, but I do wonder have to wonder about ol' Zavida himself, so the remainder of this post is going to be some impromptu research.
I haven't really seen many decisive comments on when ol' Zavida actually died (or heck, who his parents are) - the English Wikipedia article mentions not a thing, while the Serbian article mentions the various assumptions made on the father department (Ljubomir Kovačević in 1900 and Tibor Živković in 2006 thinking his father is Vukan, Stanoje Stanojević thinking it was Vukan's son, Stefan Vukan, and Jan Lesni thinking it is Uroš I Vukanović), whilst leaning more towards Živković's interpretation (which puts Zavida's death after 1127, linking him with an unnamed-yet-imprisoned Rascian prince, more on that in a bit).
Speaking on Zavida, while we know not who his father was, following the death of Vukan, there was an apparent power struggle between the Vukanovići, which would, among other things, ultimately result in Zavida being exiled from Zachumlia to Doclea, where, in Ribnica (of which he'd become a Lord of), Nemanja would be born. By Živković's interpretation, Zavida, in his belief being one of Vukan's sons, was supposed to be the successor, but the involvement of his brother Marko would see Uroš I, his own son, come to power instead (Stanoje's interpretation would make Zavida Uroš's cousin). Uroš I would closely collaborate with Đorđe Bodinović, who would even go into hiding under his rule after being defeated by the Byzantines, who conquered Doclea and enthroned Grubeša Branislavljević. From there, Đorđe would reinvade Doclea with Uroš's help, killing Grubeša without the Byzantines reacting due to their being busy in the east. Gradihna Branislavljević, Grubeša's brother (and both were Đorđe's cousins?), would end up possibly subverting Uroš' rule and linking up with Zavida's daughter (or maybe he just moved to Rascia to avoid Cousin Đorđe, and just married Zavida's daughter for less subversive reasons). In the meanwhile, Đorđe would give his other two cousins, Dragihna and Dragil, Zeta, where Zavida was supposed to still be.
However, circa 1123/25, there is an assumed change of power, by an unknown individual. Živković, based on some vague-ass wording from the Hagiography of St. Simeon and the fact that John II Komnenos countered a Pecheneg invasion into Paristrion in 1122/3, concludes that the Byzantines sent a small force to assist Zavida, who's pro-Byzantine, in coming to power in Serbia once more. And then during the 1127-1129 Byzantine-Hungarian War, after the invasion of Serbia, according to the Gesta Hungarorum, the Hungarian army imprisoned and took with them an unnamed Rascian prince. With the assumption of Zavida having come back to power, Živković once more concludes that said prince was Zavida. With this in mind, at this point, Đorđe found out that Uroš had been imprisoned, and as such, overthrew whoever was left in power in Serbia (likely Zavida's four sons) and reinstated Uroš, who would then unfortunately become a Byzantine vassal. Uroš would later then assist the Byzantines in overthrowing Đorđe in 1131, who gets imprisoned in Constantinople, where he dies. Meanwhile, Zavida ended up dying in Hungarian captivity, while Uroš would rule until about 1144/5, and Gradihna came to power in Doclea.
Now, the big question becomes this - should we consider Živković's interpretation to be the correct one here? Admittedly, having Zavida here would be more entertaining, as one could argue against his interpretation and keep him alive in Zeta (and it is said that Nemanja became of age while in Rascia, indicating that Zavida's family did return at some point in the mid-12th century [at earliest the 1130s, at latest the 1150s], likely after at minimum Đorđe was overthrown) even if he likely wouldn't be Župan of Zachumlia as a result of Uroš I still being in power (and Desa Vukanović seeming to rule Zachumlia before becoming the sole ruler of Serbia himself after co-ruler Uroš II). Alternatively, having Desa, the youngest of Uroš's sons, represent the Vukanovići might be more appropriate instead, as apparently, according to Croatian sources, he was "rather compliant to Catholic law" and had apparently built a monastery dedicated to the Virgin Mary on the island of Mljet during his reign as ruler of Zachumlia (of course, those very same sources seem to claim that Nemanja was Desa's son, so how accurate it is, I know not). And besides, at this time, Zavida is likely still pro-Byzantine, and possibly may not have joined a crusade organized by the Hungarians.
And as an aside, Uroš II and Beloš, who was Uroš I's middle son, had close ties and counted on one another, such as in 1149, when the latter's Hungarian army aided the former against the Byzantines. Meanwhile, Desa would be Prince of Doclea (after defeating Radoslav of Duklja), Travunia and Zachumlia. Basically, both the brothers didn't really have a good relationship with the Byzantines. After they got their asses beat, Uroš II swore his loyalty and tried to throw Desa under the bus, but he swore loyalty too, and thusly the two were made co-rulers, splitting Serbia internally in two. But the two still couldn't get along, so Desa, while the Byzantines were busy with other things such as the Hungarians, deposed his brother following a dispute in 1153 with the help of the pro-Hungarian faction at the court. Uroš II would be restored in 1155, after Manuel I settled the dispute between the two, deposing Desa and giving him an appanage of Dendra near Niš (which may be known as Dubočica in Serbian, or Dubrava, scholars aren't exactly sure), leading to the growing unfriendliness between Desa and Manuel. And then, in the lead-up to Manuel I attacking Hungary, Manuel ended up deposing Uroš II in 1162/3, moving him to a nice little estate where he couldn't be a threat to his interests, though it is assumed he died not too long after getting deposed. Beloš ended up briefly coming to power in Serbia, before just giving it to Desa and returning to Hungary. Desa's unfriendliness with Manuel would culminate with him refusing to return Dendra, leading to accusations of him trying something with the Hungarians. Some shit happened here in regards to that, and it led to his ass getting beat by the Byzantines in 1165 at Niš. And from there, he decided to put Zavida's sons into power, splitting Serbia internally by four while naming one of them the Grand Prince - Tihomir Zavidović, the eldest, was the Grand Prince and Prince of Rascia; Miroslav was Prince of Zahumlia (and Travunia, it appears); Stracimir was Prince of the territories of the West Morava; and the youngest, Nemanja, was Prince of Toplica, Ibar, Rasina and (Puste?) Reke.
I won't mention Helena's eager sponsoring of the Hungarian Crusade, mainly because I'm unfamiliar with her relationship with Catholicism, so that I'm willing to accept. The only other of Uroš I's kids I haven't mentioned in this post yet is Marija Vukanović, who married Conrad II Přemyslid of Znojmo.
...I wonder what Boris Kalamanos is doing right about now.
EDIT: Watch this, this post will metamorphose in the blink of an eye, including even more info!
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I wonder what effect this close cooperation between western christians and the real emperor of the Romans will have on the persception of the HRE, especially with the kaiser not taking part in neither of the first two crusades. Perhaps a demotion in the eyes of the papacy to merely king of the Germans should the kaiser also not join in on the third crusade?
Georgia was going to be apart of Crusade but then the Mongols came and destroyed there army... And you can't go Crusading without a army.
Uh, that’d be a hell of a feat for the Mongols to pull off, considering they’re currently puttering around Mongolia proper
I think he means many years later IOTL. When the Mongols where puttering around in the Middle East and turning cities into graveyards.Uh, that’d be a hell of a feat for the Mongols to pull off, considering they’re currently puttering around Mongolia proper
jocay
Banned
That's why the Georgians have to conquer Azerbaijan and build a lot of castles. Make the conquest as slow, bloody and frustrating as possible when the M*ngols arrive.
The Georgians dont know that. Us in 2019 do. Building a lot of castles takes money.
Mongols went that way since they were chasing Shah Muhammed II not really to conquer the Georgians in 1220s. They could have allied or kowtowed to the Mongols instead of fighting them since they had a common enemy during that time.
OTL situation did not favor the Georgians since when it was the Khwarezmians who attacked the Georgians before the Mongols went back in 1230s.
Even then in 1230s, war with the Mongols could easily be avoided thru excellent diplomacy. All they had to do was pay tribute which was the end result anyways.
Skallagrim
Banned
True, but if the Georgians do work together with the Byzantines, the Armenians and the Latins, and do manage to take control of Azerbaijan/Shirvan, then they will most assuredly recognise the need to heavily fortify their borders. Not against the Mongols, but against the certainly pissed-off Muslims to their south.
if they have that many allies they they don't need heavy fortification they have well enough allies to surive they may infact try to spread there borders and expand and get vassals create a cushion space, i think that be more likely then instead stop expanding and creating extremely heavy fortified borders
Skallagrim
Banned
For the foreseeable future, the bulk of (former) Shirvan would be their vassalised buffer state. In taking it, the Georgians would already have bitten off something that's going to take a good long time to properly digest. Further expansion on short notice seems highly improbable.
yes in the short notice but in the future they may want to expand more and now that they have a buffer space there in a good spot. Also the mongols have taken castle a many time before by the time they reach georgia it won't be a major challenge for them