And All Nations Shall Gather To It - A Crusades TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Rdffigueira, Mar 3, 2017.

  1. Tomislav Addai Well-Known Member

    May 13, 2017
    Mongols ruling Copts? :eek:
  2. Court Jester Well-Known Member

    Oct 18, 2017
    It would be an interesting turn of events.
  3. galileo-034 Extreme Centrist Conspirator

    Jul 14, 2010
    Baiona , Ipar Euskal Herria (Bayonne, FR)
    Mongols joining hands with Franks to conquer Egypt is certainly interesting an idea, but the problem is that, at the current pace of Frankish expansion, Egypt would probably have been already conquered about half a century before Mongols come down from Persian highlands in the 1230s. For note, they just conquered the whole of Syria and neutralized Buri's threat. So, the buffer protecting the Frankish states in pretty much in place, which leaves only Egypt as a threat and a target for expansion. It may take another generation for a conquest to happen, but that brings us to the 1160s/1170s.

    So, on North Africa, I think we get two distinguish three sections here: Egypt, Tunisia and Morroco. My view is more or less driven by geographical and ATL historical trends. Politically and geopolitically, as always, Egypt - basically the Nile valley and the delta - will stick to the Levant sphere, especially after the conquest, together with Byzantines and Franks. Besides oases near the Nile valley, as far as Siwa, Egyptian states won't be looking westwards anytime soon. As for Morroco, it won't be conquered anytime soon, which I mean as not before Al Andalus is subsumed by the ATL reconquista. That leaves basically Tunisia at the center of a geopolitical vacuum of sorts. That is, if Norman Africa keep existing as it looks it will.

    As Islamic powers in the Maghreb - first of which the Almohads - would block for the time being expansion westwards, Norman venues of expansion in North Africa will be on the Libyan coasts for the time being. They had conquered Tripoli IOTL, and may well keep following the coast and take over Cyrenaica at the same time as Egypt is conquered by Franks and Byzantines. But that's secondary to the main point I think of, which is the connection to West Africa. With Normans in control of Tunisia and Libya, they would be at the end of the most important saharan trade routes, the ones going through Fezzan for instance. That puts them in control of a most valuable trade outlet into the Mediterranean sphere since Almohads and whaterver successors in Morroco are out of gasp of European control and protection. Culturally also, it may also pave way for enhanced expansion of christianism in West Africa, since Islam expanded here through the very trade routes the Normans will begin taking over. Of course, Almohads and their successors in Morroco would keep Mali and the Niger river basin connected with a still independent Islamic power, but with Normans and Frankish-Italian-Byzantines expanding over most of North African coast by late 12th century, and Al Andalus and western Maghreb to follow over the next two or three centuries, Christian influence is going to significantly grow in the Sahel. Since it would be more progressive in time and more thorough than the brutal OTL European colonization in the 19th century, we can imagine the cultural trend lasting with progressive conversions brought by traders and then by local rulers. I can imagine that after two centuries of trade or so with Norman Africa, some local rulers may use christiannity to depart themselves from the mold of the islamic Mali Empire and see some breakaway Christian state by mid 15th century (by this point IOTL, the Mali Empire was already in decline but was still somewhat important a state and would considerably shrink through 16th century, but advancing the schedule by a century doesn't sound to me far fetched) - by which point the reconquista would have expanded into Morroco proper.

  4. PecuTheGreat Member

    Jun 22, 2019
    I'm a new reader in this TL and still have not reached the current chapter (in pg 55 now), so may i missed the current events but even though at this time and for centuries after Islam's hold in sub-saharan Africa would not be very strong, similar to the Almohads and how they took over Morocco, i suspect a similar thing may happen in Sub-Saharan Africa as ambitious warlords and shocked Islamic scholars Migrate from Libya, Tunisia and Egypt to reinforce Morocco or even forge their own realms. I suspect many of Both would migrate south instead of just to Morocco and this would lead to a speed up of the in making West Africa more seriously Islamic with butterflies like the Songhai being of some Islamic Sect like Ibadi or Khajirite and proclaiming themselves a Caliphate. As for the spread of Christianity, while a periodic Crusader Adventurer or Pious Hermit may venture into West Africa i doubt Christianity would spread quickly as the Arab and Berber trader at this time would be Muslim and the Christian Conquerors would be too occupied trying to keep control in their territories to try much more.

    The Arab and Berber traders would probably not convert, while the Italians would be Ill prepared to take their place, Christian controlled North Africa would be too spread thin to send troops to aid some Kingdom willing to convert for an alliance and a random Hermit if of European Origin may be more likely to die of some African disease, ruining the reputation of the faith. I think Sahelian West Africa and Morocco become the new centre of Islam west of Jerusalem, the early formation of a West African Caliphate and the eventual attempt to sail to the south of West Africa to cut out the Islamic Middle men spreading Christianity south.
    Krishna123 likes this.