And All Nations Shall Gather To It - A Crusades TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Rdffigueira, Mar 3, 2017.

Loading...
  1. Raiyleigh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2019
    Seeing that Armenia's/Byzantines/Crusaders/Georgians are going to be sticking around, they have a better chance at Persia/Mesoptima or perhaps India, maybe even an attempt at Turkish Russia. A radical idea would be Turkish Africa based on Swhalia or Madagascar.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  2. St. Just STOP BUMPING STOP BUMPING STOP BUMPING THREADS

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    Location:
    The DMV
    If the Turks conquer anything, it'd be reunifying Iran or moving into India as in IOTL
     
  3. Rdffigueira A citizen of the Southern Hemisphere

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Location:
    BR
    Soooo, I see that you guys got busy in these days! Very good!

    Now, I'm in a poor spot: already in the new groove, but without wifi, can't get to post from the PC, only from cel. However, I belive by the end of the week I'll be posting some stuff! 86
     
  4. ImperialxWarlord Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Location:
    Illinois
    Cutting losses in Asia Minor? Who’s cutting losses?
     
  5. cmakk1012 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Central Anatolia is likely to remain significantly Turkish, though; I expect the region to be renamed “Turkia” or something as a new province eventually :p
     
  6. ImperialxWarlord Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Location:
    Illinois
    From what we’ve seen in the Roman sections the empire is still calling these areas by their original theme names.
     
  7. DanMcCollum P-WI

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Location:
    Wauwatosa, WI
    Huzzah!!!!
     
  8. Namayan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Not sure if the Turks are majority or would be significant in population.1140s current timeline. Manzikert happened 1071. Not enough time to make majority Turks in Central or even Eastern Anatolia. The Roman liberation of central and eastern probably killed a lot of adult male turks during battles in ttl without anyway for the turks to replace them in significant numbers.

    Turkification is not solely migration but intermarriages and conversion. But that also requires those ruling central and eastern anatolia being Turks for more than just a few decades.
     
  9. cmakk1012 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Instead of lasting change, then, it’s just a serious depopulation of eastern Anatolia akin to the 7th century IOTL.

    An interesting question might be what becomes of “greater Armenia,” the Armenian heartland, since many of the surviving nobility and so on IIRC moved to Cilicia. Have they returned?
     
  10. jocay Ambiguously Brown

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2018
    Location:
    New York
    Armenia is going to try and break free when Constantinople is distracted by something else. The question is whether it can succeed.
     
  11. ImperialxWarlord Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Location:
    Illinois
    Given that the empire is very much focused on the east. And how the region of Armenia is in chaos I doubt they could successfully rebel. Now way down the line...maybe. It all depends on the level of distraction. If it’s a minor civil war then whatever gains they make is temporary. An war like that of the Norman invasion of Greece might allow a future rebellion of Armenia to succeed.
     
  12. cmakk1012 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    There’s also the rising star of Georgia to consider. Armenian nobles may end up playing Georgia and Byzantium off of each other to preserve their independence, or at least their rights. I could plausibly see a Georgian-Byzantine war over Armenia eventually, once the existential Muslim threat is gone.
     
  13. ImperialxWarlord Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Location:
    Illinois
    True, I guess it depends on who guess the upper hand in the region first. And if there’s any major Armenian authority outside of Cilicia.
     
  14. [totally a legit person] [totally not an bot]

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2019
    and thus, the cycle of nomads coming from the Steppes and conquering continues.
     
  15. [totally a legit person] [totally not an bot]

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2019
    As long as the Komenoids are in charge, they won't, even the worse Komenoid Basileus can be considered a great emperor by many peoples' standards, depends upon the time this happens.

    True, but, we also have to consider the fact of who leads the rebellion, a Scanderbag or Vertingeterox may win, but anyone else, it would depend upon what you have already said and inputted.

    As long as Islam still holds Mesopotamia, and/or the kingdom of Georgia becomes a client-state of the "Byzantines", I can't ever see a war between the two ever happening in the near future, so the rising star and the one in the sunlight won't have to conflict for a while.
     
  16. Raiyleigh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2019
    No point in fighting over Armenia anyway when Georgia has many other areas of future expansion which they could be compensated with, for example, Shirvan (Azerbaijan), Tabriz, Circassia, Dagestan. Georgia has the option of going for all of the Northern Caucasus and a good chunk of Persia.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  17. [totally a legit person] [totally not an bot]

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2019
    Yeah, the Rhomania also have other areas of conquest, and they still need to consolidate what they already have, so like what yoyu already said, there won't be much fighting over armenia between the two.
     
    Raiyleigh likes this.
  18. galileo-034 Extreme Centrist Conspirator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Location:
    Baiona , Ipar Euskal Herria (Bayonne, FR)
    On Mecca, it's more a matter of motivation than of feasibility.

    I don't know which tribal confederacy hold sway over the region besides the Sharifate, but the Levantine conquest of Syria and the neutering of Buri's threat with the TTL Second Crusade does leave only the Fatimids available for help, unless you make the Yemeni intervening, which could happen given it seems they are going to play a big role ITTL early on. Yet, as Egypt goes, Hejaz is virtually isolated and on its own. Before the Yemeni consolidate a state encompassing the whole of Hejaz, the Franks could have a window of opportunity to strike.
    Their success would be contingent on securing a supply chain, which means already having penetrated deep into Hejaz, which I deem unlikely before the window of opportunity closes, or securing an outpost at Jeddah.
    Else, they'll die of thirst before even making it to Mecca, or be trapped in their conquest (in which case the disastrous fate of the British army at Gandamak during its retreat from Kabul could befall on them).
    Plus, Hejaz is less of a desert than Nejd is, and a rather mountainous region.

    So, on motivation, besides the religious anti muslim fanaticism, there is no much if anything to justify taking the town.
    Strategically, Hejaz doesn't pose any threat to Jerusalem, unlike Egypt and Mesopotamia. Once Egypt is taken out, there is even less of a threat, and Yemen is too distant to be a serious threat even if a rising regional empire.
    Demographically, the conquest of Syria and Egypt, not counting Palestine, would put a enormous Muslim population under Levantine rule. An attack or a sack of Mecca couldn't be possibly considered without the trouble it would bring among these subject populations. The risk of widespread rioting and revolts, and the cost of suppressing them, would far outweigh any value to draw from that operation.
    Financially, it would endanger the enormous tax pool that are the pilgrims on their way to Mecca and Medina. That's way too lucrative a mana for Levantine lords to abandon it.
    When you consider the norm among Levantine lords was tolerance out of pragmatism, the only serious motivation I cited, crusader fanaticism, is almost an impossibility.
    Be it the Sharifate of Mecca or the Yemeni, there would be probably an agreement with the Jerusalemite (and given the fall of Syria and Hejaz complete isolation, it could happen soon enough in this TL), including some tribute to avoid raiding parties.

    It all depends on the fiscal apparatus. The reason why standing armies came so late is that it took a few centuries more for the fiscal apparatus to develop to such an extent that the state could support such a standing army. In France and England, you got to wait the financial pressures and strains of the Hundred Years War.

    Though the ATL Euro-Levantine control of the trade routes to Indies delays significantly the discovery of Americas, it doesn't preclude the exploration of Africa, though it could still be slower.
    If the Great Bullion Famine of the 15th century still happens (perhaps earlier than IOTL as the open trade route to Indies would likely boost the outflow of silver and gold and worsen the trade balance), then an expansion into Africa to get gold would be a good motive enough. The wealth of the Mali Empire for instance was renowned enough for Mansa Musa's pilgrimage to Mecca to make a lasting impression, for the man is considered as of today among the most wealthy men in all of history (about $400 billions inflation-adjusted ahead of Rockefeller and Carnegie).


    The difference here is that we get a different starting point in all likeliness.
    First, we may have a more lasting and solid presence of Normans in Tunisia and Libya, strengthened by the fall of Egypt, then the delayed discovery of Americas would entice the Iberian kingdoms to pursue the reconquista into North Africa, just like they almost did IOTL.
     
  19. Raiyleigh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2019
    Egypt could be potentially partitioned since it would be difficult for one single power to control all of it. Alexandria/Rosetta Coptic state under Byzantine control. Makuria gets most of Lower Egypt (basically everything below Minya). Crusaders receive most of the Nile Delta (Cario, Daimetta etc) and Sinai. Crusaders could also potentially go for the revival of Memphis, especially if Cario is devasted enough or another reason altogether.
     
  20. Ridcully Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2016
    Is it not quite the opposite? Egypt has historically almost always been ruled entirely by a single power precisely because it is easy for a single power to control. It’s a single densely populated river with a fertile delta, it’s very geography will almost certainly lead to a single power controlling it all.

    While the byzantines might be able to diplomatically wrangle control of Alexandria itself, this is not a situation that is likely to last long either given it’s a single city far from the center of Byzantine power which would quickly be taken by any hostile egyptian power.
     
Loading...