And All Nations Shall Gather To It - Volume I: The Abode of Peace

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Wolttaire

what the demographic makeup now/language makeup?

I see a lot of turf wars going where the crusaders and the fatmids go back in forth in sinia but no definitive breakthrough into heartland territory.

same thing with Mosul territory and in Arabia territory, I see a concerted effort to breakthrough to boastra and take it to do it is one of the main in route haji sites for those in well crusader controlled tll. Also just because of it a better buffer from the rich interior and most importantly Juruslaem just to give a better buffer. Also because it just a well off city and would be a nice tax boost this is before they build this place into a minor fortress so unless a stronger crusader state caused something to change. Also it a fairly important religious site in Islam to due mohhhmand doing something there and doing other stuff there not sure what. This place would be with a large enough force could be taken however this may provoke a larger response and could require a larger response to that response.
This is all non-crusading times I am reffering to above in crusading times infatc after they deal with sejuk armies I could see them taking a swing through there and conquering it. Asssuming they aren't exhausted or if they can spare men from eddaes and send some men to take it.
 
St. Just

St. Just

So I don't see any Turkish statelets in Central Anatolia, the Sinai is Fatimid again contrary to our most recent update -- and Cyprus isn't Roman anymore?! Looking forward to seeing how things shake out -- beautiful map!
 
Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)

Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)

@Praetor98 - Yeah, it won't be pretty, but then, it is to depict the enmity between Christians and Muslims as in a cyclical movement of action/reaction.

@St. Just - Yes, exactly this. Good reminder about that en passant mention of Buri. ITTL, he'll play, albeit in a minor scale, the role played by Zengi IOTL (who, in the TL is butterflied away, as he never grew to become relevant), but, as you'll see, he's much more pragmatic than fanatical.

@TyranicusMaximus - Indeed, that's one of the reasons I wanted to explore the consequences of the seismic destruction of Aleppo. It goes to show that the war about to start is just another spin in a complex machinery of human tragedies in the Outremer, one that will shape the Near East for the reminder of the 12th Century.

@StrikeEcho - Yes, that's a correct prediction. John Komnenos, now that the Empire's Balkan provinces have been mostly pacified after the complete annihilation of the Pechenegs and the reduction of the Hungarian's sphere of influence in the western Balkans, will turn his attention to Asia, but, soon enough - and he'll live longer to see this mission fulfilled - will make an attempt for Egypt as to curtail the Crusader advances. For the time being, however, the Romans are more concerned with Armenia than with Egypt.

@Joriz Castillo - lol, this meme sums up half of the stuff about to happen. I'm considering opening make a separate thread later in non-political chat to post Crusader memes.

@Wolttaire - the demographic and linguistic composition is something I intend to detail later on, as soon as we finish the Second Crusade arc. Suffice to say, until now, the current composition of the Levant hasn't changed that much. The presence of the Latins is still very recent to account for a meaningful impact over the local populations, even if we are seeing a growing presence in the urban coastal territories.

In what regards to future expansions, I believe that the Crusaders would attempt to expand into Palmyra/Tadmor and Bostra, but these regions are too remote to justify a permanent presence of military contingents. More likely, the Latins will be content with demanding fealty from the local Syrian or Arabic rulers. Perhaps one or another minor baron or knight even gets to be interested to have his own province, but, it he'll hardly be convinced to actually live there if he can have a more pleasurable life in Damascus. These, in any case, will probably be the last relevant movements of territorial expansion of the Crusader State in eastern Syria and Arabia, because the center of their dominion is in the Mediterranean region.

@jocay - "ma nibba, your Empire is sure THICC as hell!"

@St. Just - these are some things I didn't mention when I posted the map.

First, ignore the different color for Cyprus, it is just that, when I presented a map to Cattette, it was probably a base map that had the post-Third Crusade independent Cyprus; ITTL, Cyprus is under firm Byzantine control, and will remain such.

Second, the minor Turkish states were ignored in purpose (when me and Cattette discussed in PM's the details about the map, I told her it wouldn't be necessary to depict all the minor Islamic polities in Anatolia). To represent them all accurately would demand a quasi-impossible effort, because their very geopolitical format is fluid and inconstant, and we lack good reliable real-life maps depicting them. Moreover, by 1140, they (the Saltukids, Mengujekids and minors) have all but recognized Byzantine hegemony, so it wouldn't be relevant to depict them as autonomous entities. The ones that remain de facto independent are those in central and eastern Armenia and in Jazira, but their overall impact will be minor in the alt-Second Crusade, mostly because they will either remain neutral or join the forces of Seljuq Mosul. The notable exception will be the Shah-Armens.

And about the Sinai, you've raised an interesting point, indeed... and it can be explained by the fact that the Crusader presence there will be fairly short-lived. As soon as the Crusaders turn their attention to Edessa, the Fatimids will reclaim the Sinai provinces, returning to the status quo ante bellum. And from there onwards... well, you can guess what might happen.

_____________________________________________


EDIT: Next update comes friday night or saturday morning (God be willing). I believe some five or so installments will be dedicated to detail the Second Crusade. After this, we'll see a batch of more descriptive chapters, to discuss language, economy, culture, and others, before we resume the narrative. Now we see our alternate-world take shape!
 
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Icedaemon

Icedaemon

A superb map indeed!
Other than the already-mentioned issue with Cyprus.

It does seem that this is if nothing else close to the final form of the Principality of Jerusalem itself. Should they eventually expand their buffer zone in Sinai and seize the regions around Palmyra and Bostra for yet more of the same, the land area might be substantially more, but in terms of populous settlements they are not likely to ever gain more. Egypt would be it's own kingdom and if Edessa is seized by the Seljuks for a while, it is likely to be reclaimed and fully absorbed by the Romans.
 
St. Just

St. Just

So if the Emirate of Mosul is ruled by the Toghtekinoglu IIRC, why is it referred to as Seljuq Mosul? Vassalage to the Iran Seljuqs -- or is the house of Toghtekin destined for a shorter time in the spotlight? Also -- will any of the Anatolian Turks convert or be forced to convert, or is the status quo of Muslim warlords paying homage and tribute to the Emperor going to last a while?
 
galileo-034

galileo-034

About Bosra...
I imagine the city is very tempting a target, as it's isolated since the fall of Damascus and its position on the Hajj routes from Syria gives it a lucrative perspective as to taxes raised by whatever Latin lord would try and take the city for his own benefit (the deserts beyond don't leave much choice but to stop at it.

Similar motives could lead to a gradual expansion into northern Hejaz. That would be not a lightning conquest, but a series of coups de main, of adventures, raids and opportunities seized by new crusaders that couldn't find room in Syria or even Egypt, because they are either too low ranking to get fiefs of any worth or too late.
I'm not thinking of something very wide, nor very speedy, more a pace measured in decades, but you get the idea.
Kind of a Latin version of the Far West in Arabia.

Beginning in the Outrejourdain, we'd get a Latin culture way different of the Palestine and Syria. We would be having on one side a region urbanized with agriculture, and on the other side, more desertic and isolated areas, less densely populated, where fiefs often revolving around single cities and the space around it, with a frontier mentality.


EDIT: Not to mention, there would also those wanting to take some port on the Red Sea to establish a base for naval expeditions and probably ransom (or "tax") ships of pilgrims passing through the area.
 
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Tomislav Addai

Tomislav Addai

As for the Sinai, it acts as a good defensive buffer preventing major military invasions. Similarly, the Syrian desert acts in the same way. I agree though that Bostra and the Hawran could be made into a first defence.. possibly ruled by some Arab Christians (as the Druze would enter the area only in the Modern Era sometime).

Coincidentally, this had been home to the Ghasssanids before the Rashidun expansion
 
Skallagrim

Skallagrim

Banned
The map perfectly illustrates the great weakness of the Crusader Levant: no strategic depth. just as @galileo-034 says, Bostra must be a tempting target for sure. It is isolated, it controls its direct region (and no alternative centre of power could easily be set up to 'rival' Bostra in the immediate vicinity), its position makes it lucrative for taxing caravans, and it provides just that bit more in-land power projection that you want.

And I also agree that ventures into the northern Hejaz are likely-- if only to secure the Gulf of Aqaba (or rather, Aila). This will probably have to wait until after Egypt has been (more-or-less) definitively dealt with.

The map also shows something else, though, which is that Edessa will eventually become a bone of contention between the Crusaders and Constantinople. If the Byzantines ultimately get what they really, really want (control of everything up to Armenia, so they can directly link up with the Christian Armenians and thus provide a definitive limit for all Islamic ambitions), then the Byzantines will realise that Edessa holds lands that they want for themselves. I'm fairly sure the long-term Byzantine vision involves their border running east from Aleppo to the Euphrates, then along the river to include Ain-Tab and Samosata (and then vaguely along the mountains towards Lake Van, running into the Armenian border at some as yet undefined point).

Obviously, this will inevitably involve laying claim to the majority of what is now held by Edessa. I really don't see the Byzantines not eventually wanting those lands. Maybe Edessa can be compensated by aidaing it in expnding south, all the way to Raqqa? Jerusalem could also profit from such a concerted campaign, pushing up to Tadmor, and putting the border with Edessa at the Euphrates. Having a Mardin-Raqqa-Tadmor-Bostra(-northern Hejaz) border for the Crusaders, combined with the proposed Byzantine-Armenia border to the north-east, would afford some much-needed security to the Christian states.
 

Tapirus Augustus

Skallagrim said:
The map perfectly illustrates the great weakness of the Crusader Levant: no strategic depth. just as @galileo-034 says, Bostra must be a tempting target for sure. It is isolated, it controls its direct region (and no alternative centre of power could easily be set up to 'rival' Bostra in the immediate vicinity), its position makes it lucrative for taxing caravans, and it provides just that bit more in-land power projection that you want.
Click to expand...

That's all true, but the Crusader situation is massively stronger than IOTL where they were still able to put up a remarkably strong fight. And of course their much more solid presence in the Levant ITTL means that the Muslim powers will have a much trickier time uniting and coordinating.
 
St. Just

St. Just

I mean, it sounds like the County of Edessa isn't long for the world anyway, what with Baldwin chilling in Tiberias and the Turk trying to conquer it -- maybe the Romans take it from the Turks rather than beefing with the Crusaders. There's also the issue of Aleppo -- the Romans have effectively blocked the Crusaders from much of northern Syria by holding that key city, and the Roman state has much more leeway to hold the Edessan march vis-a-vis the Crusaders, who have to reckon with Egypt and the whole Arabian border as well...
 

jocay

Banned
Are the Crusaders making any efforts to proselytize to the Arab tribes beyond their control? If it can't be conquered and ruled from Jerusalem, maybe there would be a friendly local proxy? Hauran at the time was still largely Greek Orthodox Christian.
 
ImperialxWarlord

ImperialxWarlord

What an excellent story! I spent all of last night and this morning binging it.

I’m a big fan of stronger crusader states and komnenian restoration stories so seeing both in one story is awesome.

I’m curious to see how the language and culture of the crusader states will develop. I imagine that being separated from the home country and mingling with other peoples will eventually cause some new linguistic and cultural group to be created.
 
Icedaemon

Icedaemon

Would Edessa really really that much of a bone of contention in this timeline? Jerusalem itself is de jure a vassal of the Eastern Roman Empire. Edessa could well have a latin lord, but be paying fealty in a real way to the Romans and thus be seen as just a border province with a more eclectic populace and set olf local dignitaries.
 

TyranicusMaximus

Rdffigueira said:
Indeed, that's one of the reasons I wanted to explore the consequences of the seismic destruction of Aleppo. It goes to show that the war about to start is just another spin in a complex machinery of human tragedies in the Outremer, one that will shape the Near East for the reminder of the 12th Century.
Click to expand...

Aleppo's loss is almost certainly Antioch-on-the-Orontes's gain.
 

Some Bloke

galileo-034 said:
Beginning in the Outrejourdain, we'd get a Latin culture way different of the Palestine and Syria. We would be having on one side a region urbanized with agriculture, and on the other side, more desertic and isolated areas, less densely populated, where fiefs often revolving around single cities and the space around it, with a frontier mentality.
Click to expand...

I wonder what the theme to the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly would sound like with medieval instruments.
 
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