Wait is the only reason why there isn’t a German host because plot?

Well... a very GOOD PLOT reason, indeed (I hope)

Have in mind that the incumbent Emperor is the elderly Lothair II, who was, by the time, childless. So I figure that he himself wouldn't be to keen on going all the way to Jerusalem in such an advanced age, and with the risk of never returning, one that will possibly produce a succession conflict.

Now, for why there will be fewer German feudal lords going on Crusade right now... we'll see in next installment.

You where I could imagine less crusades? The Baltic. The Teutonic Order won't get shrekt out of the Holy Land, there will be a lot of better Muslim targets with real tax base and/or religious significance. Ortho Balts would be a nice counterweight to all the Catholicism, and Lithuania as the big bad pagan holdout is always fun too

@St. Just - indeed, the Northern Crusades as a whole were initiated by a series of contrived circumstances, none of the least, we cannot forget, was the fact that the Teutonic Knights were invited by the Kings of Poland and received land there. This is a factor, IMHO, that can be easily butterflied. It is likely, however, that we'll be seeing some advances eastward along the Baltic region from the Germanies, from Poland and likely from Denmark and Sweden, but they'll be more gradual and perhaps less brutal than OTL. I'm actually interested in working with a longer lasting paganism in the Baltic, as per your idea.

@Some Bloke - the Crusaders from day one have been recruiting natives, especially those actually affiliated to Christian (even if non-Catholic) denominations - as @jocay and @Alias said, the Maronites and Syriacs come to mind, and there is a large role played by Christian Turkic groups, usually called "Turcopoles", as well as the native Palestinians.

As it happened to many historical multi-ethnic armies, since before the Roman Empire, we'll be seeing, in general terms, a structure centered around the ruling aristocratic forming a prestige class among the officers - in this case, the Frankish Crusaders, mostly in heavy and light cavalry, but also in professional infantry divisions - with plenty of "especialist" auxiliary groups, usually levied among locals (ranged troops, light cavalry scouts and foragers, light infantry, and so forth.
 
Is a succession war brewing in Germany? Noone wants to have their forces far from home in case they might need the troops to keep order?

As for the Baltic, if the Christians are more focused on the southeast and relatively small and less organized forces try to impose themselves on the northeast, the pagans might have both the external pressures and the time to organize properly and conclude that they need to be in more unified and feudal-like nation to combat the Christians. I am not explaining this very well; what I am picturing is Estonians, Livonians and Finns developing along similar lines to the Lithuanians, unified under a sovereign with a clear succession. Since Lithuania does seem to have a head start on that, they might well icorporate most of Curonia and Lettgallia before anything like a Latvian nation comes to be. Also, if (indeed, when) there's common but survivable pressure on both from Sweden and Novgorod, Estonia and Finland might be united against common enemies and quite possibly into a unified state with a common monarch. The odd thing with that would be that due to the very low population density in Finland up until quite recently, most of the populace would probably be in the parts we recognize as Estonia.
 
Is a succession war brewing in Germany? Noone wants to have their forces far from home in case they might need the troops to keep order?

As for the Baltic, if the Christians are more focused on the southeast and relatively small and less organized forces try to impose themselves on the northeast, the pagans might have both the external pressures and the time to organize properly and conclude that they need to be in more unified and feudal-like nation to combat the Christians. I am not explaining this very well; what I am picturing is Estonians, Livonians and Finns developing along similar lines to the Lithuanians, unified under a sovereign with a clear succession. Since Lithuania does seem to have a head start on that, they might well icorporate most of Curonia and Lettgallia before anything like a Latvian nation comes to be. Also, if (indeed, when) there's common but survivable pressure on both from Sweden and Novgorod, Estonia and Finland might be united against common enemies and quite possibly into a unified state with a common monarch. The odd thing with that would be that due to the very low population density in Finland up until quite recently, most of the populace would probably be in the parts we recognize as Estonia.
To be honest that reads more like Hollywood fiction then anything realistic. Its got the trope that there is a ( singular) Pagan religion rather than many, Pagan's might live and let live more but they didn't see the others as co-religions ( that's more the the new age revivals ). There is also the trope that Finns and Balts are similar/friends in this period, that's not true, they are more likely to fight each other than fight together, they definitely have no desire to be one people or accept rule by the other group.
 
Divide and conquer?
Proxy wars with the Catholics backing one and the Orthodox powers backing the other?
Use the church to broker peace?
Insist on missionaries etc in exchange for support?
More and more concessions to their Christian "allies" with every truce?
 
The pagans are still gonna lose in the end it just will be later but The Christian nations around it will simply steamroll it at some point and in fact without the brutal northern crusades we may just see them many more of the convert peacefully or the rulers do like what happens much in Eastern Europe and Europe in general do to all the benefits
 
I'm not a "Make them all Muslim" guy but it sure would be interesting to see them appeal to the Volga Bolghars or whomever is in that area and converts to Islam to form a sort of "northern caliphate"
 

Skallagrim

Banned
I'm not a "Make them all Muslim" guy but it sure would be interesting to see them appeal to the Volga Bolghars or whomever is in that area and converts to Islam to form a sort of "northern caliphate"

One might consider something like the Khazar Khaganate, with its judaïsing elite. Nonsense hypotheses involving Khazars and Jews notwithstanding, it is by now well-attested and widely understood that the Khazar aristocracy embraced judaism-- most probably to avoid making a choice between Christianity and Islam, which both had designs on the region (whereas the Jews did not).

I can see a situation where there are indeed northern peoples who might choose to convert to islam for some similarly strategic reason. The conversion would probably be limited to the elite, as in the case of the Khazar example, but it would be an interesting bit of history.
 
I'm not a "Make them all Muslim" guy but it sure would be interesting to see them appeal to the Volga Bolghars or whomever is in that area and converts to Islam to form a sort of "northern caliphate"

One might consider something like the Khazar Khaganate, with its judaïsing elite. Nonsense hypotheses involving Khazars and Jews notwithstanding, it is by now well-attested and widely understood that the Khazar aristocracy embraced judaism-- most probably to avoid making a choice between Christianity and Islam, which both had designs on the region (whereas the Jews did not).

I can see a situation where there are indeed northern peoples who might choose to convert to islam for some similarly strategic reason. The conversion would probably be limited to the elite, as in the case of the Khazar example, but it would be an interesting bit of history.
I am gonna assume you are taking about the Volga Bulgaria well they did convert to islam and had one of the great trading cities then Russia states pushed them back quite a bit and then went into welding then the mongols came and kille the corpse
 
I don't know anything about mead but pork was eaten in Bosnia and a large portion of the population converted to Islam during the Ottoman period and they don't eat pork anymore.
Wasn’t bosina for hundred of years of ottoman rule and some Turkish settler came in and the ottomans did try to convert there? Also isn’t there a bifmg difference between living under Muslim rule And converting it
 
To be honest that reads more like Hollywood fiction then anything realistic. Its got the trope that there is a ( singular) Pagan religion rather than many, Pagan's might live and let live more but they didn't see the others as co-religions ( that's more the the new age revivals ). There is also the trope that Finns and Balts are similar/friends in this period, that's not true, they are more likely to fight each other than fight together, they definitely have no desire to be one people or accept rule by the other group.

??

Was my post truly this badly worded that you got the impression I was going for something like that?

I suggested unifying potentially down to one Baltic and one Finnic nation, not to one pagan state. Even so, I made no mention of the Sami, because in this period I find it unlikely anyone would be willing to expend the resources to come to dominate largely nomadic reindeer herders in a borderline inhospitable tundra just to paint a part of a map their own colour. A unified paganism would indeed be absurd, but Lithuania did organize itself into a unified state which was seen as a proper nation after repulsing the crusaders for long enough to convert to Christianity on it's own terms, so with the crusaders focusing on the holy land, I see no reason why the same would not happen by the gulf of Finland given enough time.

Sure, said nations would eventually either convert or be successfully invaded, but even in the latter case, this might mean that there's an earlier concept of an independent Finland and/or Estonia, considered a territory with a proper claim to being an attested kingdom as opposed to a piece of land for others to seize and swap.
 
45. The Lotharian Controversy (1137/1142)
Or, Why The Germans Did Not Go On the *Second Crusade?

The answer is: they actually did. But their role in this Crusade will be markedly less significant than the one they played in the previous expeditions, due to a series of contrived circumstances that we'll see right now.


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A composite map of the [Holy] Römisches Reich depicting its territorial extent before the Salian dynasty. It must be explained that the northeastern part of the Empire, that is, the Billung March, was lost to the pagan "Wends" in the later Ottonian phase, as did much of Saxony north of the Elbe river.


In 1137, when the word about the Papal summon substantiated in the bull Ut Omnes Gentes Christorum spread in Germany, it was actually received with great enthusiasm. The communities and provinces of Swabia, Bavaria, and of the Rhineland and Saxony, were experiencing an unprecedented demographic and economic expansion, coupled with a spiritual revivalism, similar to what was happening in Francia, in the Iberian Peninsula and in Scandinavia, and the idea of “taking the cross” to discover distant and mythical worlds was tantalizing. If the ecclesiastic estates were particularly influential in places such as Mainz, Magdeburg and Trier, one could see a parallel development of self-governing communes in Frankfurt, Hamburg and Nuremberg, among other places, and these rising commoner classes routinely cajoled the Kaiser to be favored with greater privileges than those of the Lombard and Tuscan emporia.

At the time, the few extant legal documents that describe the Imperial organization of the early 12th Century give us an embryonic form of the distinction between the fiefs of the Reich that will develop in the next following centuries, between the:
  1. Urbes Curatoriales” – the fiefs whose holder was a member of the Church hierarchy, usually an archbishop or a bishop, and, sometimes, an abbot;
  2. Urbes Principenses” – urban settlements governed by a feudal lord, usually of baronial or comital rank, and, rarely, directly by the Dukes or Margraves (e.g. Regensburg in Bavaria or Nancy in Upper Lorraine);
  3. And “Urbes Ministeriales” – territories ruled by magistrates (called “Vögt” or “Praepositus”) directly subordinate to the Imperial Crown, as was the case of Aachen and Worms.
The Crusading enthusiasm was particularly more fervent in the more urbanized regions of the Reich, notably the Rhineland and Lorraine, but also the Alpine region and central Burgundy. We read about various enterprises furnished by the collective resources invested by groups of citizens, and elder men and women alike believed that their own salvation could be secured by proxy, as their own sons and daughters would make the pilgrimage in their stead. On the other side of the realm, however, noticeably in the northern regions that comprised the country of the Saxons, there were but a few adepts. This can be explained by the fact that these regions were under a constant state of hostility against the “Wends”, a confederation of pagan Slavic peoples living in Pomerania and Pomerelia, whose population and insolence had grown tenfold ever since they had expelled the conquering armies of the Ottonian Emperors of old.


51+o9TYkO4L.jpg


Detail of engraving depicting the bustling city of Cologne (c. 1200), whose "Gothic" architecture would become renowned through the whole continent


As it happened, however, the current Emperor, Lothair II, was not particularly interested in leading the “most exalted expedition” with his various subjects, likely afflicted with the ails of advanced age. So far, his reign had been stable and tranquil, and devoid of any significant military actions; by diplomacy, he obliged the King of Denmark, the bastard Eric II, into paying homage in exchange for recognition of his claim to the throne; in another front, he mediated the conflict between Bohemia and Poland, and obtained tribute from King Boleslaw III the “Wry-mouthed”. In Italy, his relationship with the Papacy had hitherto been mostly amicable, and, after becoming the undisputed master of the southern half of the peninsula, Duke Roger of Sicily, Apulia and Calabria also acknowledged Imperial suzerainty. There were, however, elements that constantly intrigued to jeopardize his dominance, most notably the Swabian Hohenstaufen, who had been greatly favored by the late Salian Emperors, and resented the fact that they had not attained the Imperial supremacy. Of particular note, the Kaiser was rivaled by Frederick II, the Duke of Swabia, and his brother Conrad of Franconia, the same that had been elected an anti-king in 1127, opposed to Lothair. Conrad’s recognition of Kaiser Lothair II had only happened a few years before, in 1135, and thus the ruling monarch still held a bitter animosity towards the Hohenstaufen, and carefully monitored their every step.

The lack of patronage from the monarch most certainly caused the adhesion of the German subjects to the *Second Crusade to be fragmented, and their efforts, dispersed. Everywhere one could hear about the noblemen in Bohemia gathering their banners, as did the freemen of the Rhineland and the knights of Franconia, but there was no concerted enterprise as that devised by the King of France.

To be fair, the Hohenstaufen brothers petitioned to the Emperor for him to assemble a great host, but were met with a lukewarm reception and vague promises. It soon became clear that the ears of the King gave more attention to the interests of the Saxon lords, who desired to campaign against the pagans in the Baltic littoral, and had no intention of venturing as far as Asia.

Now, Duke Conrad of Franconia earnestly wanted to take the cross, but his brother convinced him against it. Departing from Germany right now would mean curtailing their political influence and delay their pretenses to Imperial kingship, especially considering that Lothair was already old. And, certainly, their greatest political adversary, the Duke of Bavaria – who was the Kaiser’s son-in-law and poised to succeed him upon his death – would never go to the Orient if his rivals stayed in Europe.

This explains why only the Lorrainers endeavored to join the *Second Crusade in its first phase, led by Simon I [brother of Theodorich of Flanders], who would, though, unexpectedly die in 1139 A.D., while traversing Hungary. This tragedy would dissolve his army and put Lorraine out of the expedition for the time being.


*****​


It was in late 1138, however, that the troubles began. The Crusadist movement, in various places, was quickly enraptured by the apocalypticist rhetoric so honed by the low-ranking prelates. It was all too common to hear about divine and angelic apparitions, miraculous happenings, and ominous events, not unlike the omens witnessed by their pagan forefathers; it was just that, now, these otherworldly phantasms were associated with saints and angels, and not with brooding forest gods or cave dwellers. Astrologers and exorcists, in these years, were regarded as authorities; their prophecies and divinations were taken literally, such as one voiced by a certain Burgundian esoteric scientist, who claimed that the Apocalypse was imminent, and that every man and women ought to march with their children and elders to “Babylon”, where God would pass the ultimate judgment.

What drew the attention of the authorities, however, was a column of cross-bearers that traversed along the Rhine valley just as the snows of November began to fall. It was a large congregation of minor knights, parochial priests, peasants, laborers, artisans, mostly from the countries of Westphalia and Lorraine, led by an impostor who claimed to be the resurrected Archbishop of Magdeburg, Norbert of Xanten (d. 1134), and, for this reason, was named “Pseudo-Norbert”. His inflamed preaching led the Crusaders to perpetrate a series of questionable acts in the region located between Lorraine, Burgundy and Swabia. The First Crusade had shown that religious fervor could be easily harnessed to produce collateral impact against religious minorities, most notably the Jews, whose communities had grown tenfold under the Ottonians, and suffered greatly at the hands of the Lorrainer armies, 40 years before. Now, this “Norbertine” host once again stoked the flames of intolerance and agitated the rabble with antisemite hatred, but, this time, the damage was lesser on human lives, and more on their patrimony, which was dilapidated by infuriated Crusaders, from Speyer to Haguenau. It was commonly said that they could not go to the Orient to face the infidel before purging their own country of the “Christ-killers” who drank the blood of innocents!

A particularly vicious episode, one that provoked widespread uproar, happened in the parish of Schönau, where they attacked and butchered the congregation affiliated to Worms, supposedly to purge the realm from “lepers and heretics”. They believed that the region was a haven for a group of sectarians that had recently denounced as heretics, the Henricians, unaware that these ones had been active in the region of Alpine Burgundy, not in Rhineland. Then, the Prince-Bishop of Worms, infuriated by the unexpected barbarity and the violation of the sacrosanct patrimony of the Church, excommunicated the Norbertines and demanded satisfaction from the lay prince, in this case, Duke Frederick II of Swabia. The Hohenstaufen magnate, unwilling to take any action in the onset of a cold winter, argued that it was all an ecclesiastic matter, to which he held no jurisdiction.

Unsatisfied, the Diocese of Worms then appealed directly to the Imperial Court. Emperor Lothair II, at the time sojourning in an ancient Roman bath-town near Lünenburg, heard about the episodes of violence by the Crusaders in the eve of Christmas, and was outraged by the contemptuous abuse of the memory of the late Archbishop Norbert - who was a personal friend of his - and took immediate action in face of the negligence of the Swabians. Before the year ended, an interdict was placed upon the communities whose knights had participated in the atrocities and ordering reparation to the ransacked Jewish and Christian districts. By the Kaiser's decree, the ministeriales, both secular, and spiritual, were expected to withhold any support to these “cross-bearers” who had broken their vows of piety and, if they perpetrated acts of violence inside Imperial territory, they were to be arrested and put to trial.

The purposed solution to the problem, predictably, caused other problems.

In both Swabia and in Franconia, the Hohenstaufen brothers coalesced with like-minded Church ministers, chief among them the Archbishops of Mainz and of Augsburg, and denounced what they saw as an usurpation of both seigniorial and ecclesiastic prerogatives. We can suspect, as per the narrative of Otto of Freising, that the ambitious Staufer purposefully exaggerated the situation out of its initial proportion in an effort to provoke a political crisis. And in this, after all, they succeeded, when the Papacy became entangled in the legal quandary, and placed himself against the Kaiser’s interests.


Sem título.png


Non-contemporary illumination of Emperor Lothair II (sometimes reckoned as "III", as if preceded by Lothair II, King of Lotharingia, who, however, was never crowned Emperor)


By 1140, the whole political structure of the Reich had been paralyzed, and the misunderstandings between the stubborn Lothair and the zealous Anacletus threatened to revive the turmoil of the Investiture Controversy, which had been mostly dwindled after the celebration of the Concordat of Worms. The Kaiser’s most stalwart partisan was his son-in-law, Henry X Welf of Bavaria, who by then was also the overlord of the Duchy of Saxony, and brother to Welf VI, the Margrave of Tuscany and Spoleto. Among his supporters there were also the great bannerlords of the north, Albert of Brandenburg and Conrad of Meissen, who had greatly benefited from Lothair’s patronage. Fearing the strength of this coalition, in the case the realm broke into open warfare, the Hohenstaufen allied with the Babenbergers of Austria. But their greatest success was in co-opting the allegiance of many republican communes and episcopalian congregations, presenting themselves as the protectors of the privileges and prerogatives of the burghers and clergymen against the King’s authority.

What the Swabians could not have foreseen was that their adversaries would launch a preemptive strike, headed by none other than the Duke of Bavaria – whose casus belli was the supposed violation, by the Hohenstaufen magnate Frederick, of the Welfen’s inheritance in Altdorf and in Ravensburg. Frederick protested against what he saw as an unjustified aggression, but, by early 1141, the Swabian levies had already been conscripted to face the knightly vanguard from Bavaria in the border regions, all while the forces of Tuscany and Spoleto were being assembled in Parma with the intent of crossing the Alps.

Fortunately, Pope Anacletus II interfered with surgical precision, and successfully obtained a truce between the belligerent parties before significant operations had been concluded. To solve the disputes, he summoned the Kaiser and his vassals to a conference in Trento [Trènt].

There, an armistice was obtained, and the lords who had broken the peace of the realm and raised arms forged a pact to join together in the *Second Crusade as penitence, in what amounted to the most remarkable example of a “trucial expedition” so far. It is also worth noting that the Pope implicitly legitimized Lothair’s imperial interdict against the Rhinelander communities that had ushered violence against Jews (and Christians) alike. Once again he reaffirmed the Sicut Judaeis bull and admonished the German lords that the conversion of the Judeans might not be achieved by bloodshed.

Finally, as a concession to his own interests, Lothair obtained from Pope Anacletus II a sanction to wage a holy war against the “Wends” – a campaign that promised to increase the territorial reach of the Saxon potentates loyal to the Emperor –, on the condition that their armies could only be mustered after the German Crusaders had returned home from the Outremer.

As it generally happens in the course of human events, neither of the architects of this pact would survive to see it concluded: Pope Anacletus II would pass away in 1144, the final year of the *Second Crusade, and Lothair II in 1146, in the eve of the “Pomeranian Crusade”. Then, it would be seen that the Compact of Trento had merely delayed an inevitable dynastic war between the Welfen and the Hohenstaufen, one that would reshape the very political fabric of the [Holy] Roman Reich.


__________________________________________________

Notes and comments: Lothair II is an historical HRE Emperor, but his life diverges a bit from OTL. The most noticeable fact is that, whereas IOTL he waged a long war against the recently crowned King of Sicily, in the context of a dispute between the legitimate Pope Innocent II and the Antipope Anacletus II, and died of a disease he contracted while returning from Italy to Germany, here his death is butterflied because its peculiar circumstances cannot be replicated.

The same goes to Henry X of Bavaria, whose death, albeit of natural causes, was sudden (aged only 30 years old). Considering the divergences, once again, we see that these two individuals will survive their historical deceasing dates.

All the other characters mentioned are historical: IOTL Frederick of Swabia – the father of Frederick Barbarossa – tried unsuccessfully to bid for the Imperial Crown, as did his younger brother Conrad III, who, oddly enough, was recognized King of Germany, but was never coronated Roman Emperor (so he is usually kept out of the official records).

As you might be seeing, one of the divergences I’m interested in exploring is to favor the Welfs instead of the Hohenstaufen. This gives us some very interesting implications, because the Welfs, up until the Staufers broke their feudal territories, had accumulated the prestigious Duchies of Bavaria and Saxony, as well as the Canossan inheritance, and were unquestionably the most powerful vassals of the Emperor. With this divergence, we can perhaps conceive a gradual political centralization of the Empire, as many TL’s present.

The Henrician heresy is also an historical one, as you can see in the link posted above, but there is no evidence that they became present in southern Germany; their area of influence was, however, in southeastern France, so I figured it would be a very convenient curiosity to go unnoticed.

Despite being significantly anticipated, TTL Wendish Crusade won’t be significantly different from OTL, so I won’t be delving in details about it in the next installments.
 
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Oh, i love the political machinations in Germany. Not too much to add than that, save that I've noticed you following my own timeline and wanted to say thanks :) Also, keep up the great work - this is the best Crusader timeline ive read and it has excited me to learn more about the era (as any great timeline will do!)
 

Skallagrim

Banned
It's great and I love it. It'll be fun to see the Welfs shine for a change. Almost every AH attempt to really change the HRE during this period boils down to a big Staufenwank.

That said, I do have some doubts about the realism of point four of your footnotes (gradual centralisation of the HRE). There's a reason people go to the Staufen emperors for that one: they actually took concrete steps to make it happen, and their general "fuck the Pope, I'm in charge here" attitude meant that -- in ATLs where they come out on top -- they have the crucial leeway available that they need to impose reforms. The Welfs are more bound by the need to maintain a better relationship with the Holy See, and that limits their ability to centralise comprehensively. Any even moderately sane Pope is all too aware of the risk a great, big, united temporal empire would be to him. The Holy See will do its utmost to preserve something like the status quo in the HRE, and prevent sweeping reforms (like those Frederick II wanted in OTL, for instance).

I'm aware you wrote "gradual centralisation", but I'm really convinced it'll be more like piecemeal, with lots of setbacks, and only incremental reforms on a mostly ad hoc basis.
 
Oh, i love the political machinations in Germany. Not too much to add than that, save that I've noticed you following my own timeline and wanted to say thanks :) Also, keep up the great work - this is the best Crusader timeline ive read and it has excited me to learn more about the era (as any great timeline will do!)

Are you kidding? The Amalingian Empire is a relic in this TL. It's one of the first TL's I've seen around about Late Antiquity, a period that fascinates me even more than the Middle Ages. My problem is that I usually start long-lasting TL's reading it backwards, so I get to the latest post to situate myself in time and then I'll back to the beginning. Also, you could put it in your signature to have an easy access link :)

Thanks very much for the praise and the support. The funny thing about writing something like this is how much I learn and get integrated into this alien world that was the Medieval Age. To learn about these personalities, places, cultures, languages and socioeconomic revolutions, and then filter it into a more palatable narrative format, it is a hard task, of course, and, as a lover of History, a great responsibility to plausibly represent the "spirit" of that age.

It's great and I love it. It'll be fun to see the Welfs shine for a change. Almost every AH attempt to really change the HRE during this period boils down to a big Staufenwank. That said, I do have some doubts about the realism of point four of your footnotes (gradual centralisation of the HRE). There's a reason people go to the Staufen emperors for that one: they actually took concrete steps to make it happen, and their general "fuck the Pope, I'm in charge here" attitude meant that -- in ATLs where they come out on top -- they have the crucial leeway available that they need to impose reforms. The Welfs are more bound by the need to maintain a better relationship with the Holy See, and that limits their ability to centralise comprehensively. Any even moderately sane Pope is all too aware of the risk a great, big, united temporal empire would be to him. The Holy See will do its utmost to preserve something like the status quo in the HRE, and prevent sweeping reforms (like those Frederick II wanted in OTL, for instance). I'm aware you wrote "gradual centralisation", but I'm really convinced it'll be more like piecemeal, with lots of setbacks, and only incremental reforms on a mostly ad hoc basis.

That's a very accute observation. The HRE was an odd political monstrosity even if compared to the contemporary political entities, and its turbulent relationship with the Papacy and the regionalist interests, be it from Italy, Burgundy, Austria, Bohemia or Saxony, present us a fascinating microcosm of the Medieval institutions.

I just want to address, without raising any disagreement towards your explanation, that my point is actually to conceive a HRE that survives as a distinct and individualized political structure - not necessarily centralized as a nation-state, it might well be a feudal one - instead of one that degenerates into the mess that it became after the Protestant Reform and the Thirty Years' War.

Perhaps the Empire will finally be truly centralised under the great Sigmar I, Hammer of the Pagans. :-D

I'm not sure about Sigmar, but the final chapter of this TL will most likely be one dealing with the (not too peaceful, I imagine) transition of the HRE into the Imperium of Man.
 
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