I don't think the crusaders would survive past the rennaisance era even if they sacked egypt. Why?
1. Disunity. Even if they are united for now, as they are surrounded by many sides. But once they destroy egypt, it's primary enemy, they would compete on who is getting egypt, and may start to see their own knights as a bigger enemy than the saracens.

2. It's going to be a relic of the past. Once the rennaisance inevitably happens, the papal states and other european countries will be focused on wars of their own, and crusading will be less appealing to funders. Plus, crusading will look barbarous for people who are going by the renaissance indivisualism and simply be left behind in terms of culture in their western european cousins, which means rich people won't support the crusading culture anymore. Sure they can rely on Byzantium, but Byzantium will sooner or later start seeing crusader states as a nuisance.

If we want the crusader polities to survive, renaissance era is where they would probably end.

#1 is a very good point insomuch that Crusader infighting will certainly weaken them; it did OTL. There’ll probably be power and influence plays involving neighboring nations too.

#2 isnt necessarily a problem. By the time of the Renaissance the Crusader states will be well entrenched enough that they don’t need outside support—one or more may well conquer Egypt, Syria, or Mesopotamia during that time. Moreover, the culture of the states will change—they will probably become much more Arab in culture, while simultaneously influencing the Palestinians/Syrians to become more Frankish. It’ll be fascinating to see where the cultural syncretism ends up.
 
I don't think the crusaders would survive past the rennaisance era even if they sacked egypt. Why?
1. Disunity. Even if they are united for now, as they are surrounded by many sides. But once they destroy egypt, it's primary enemy, they would compete on who is getting egypt, and may start to see their own knights as a bigger enemy than the saracens.

2. It's going to be a relic of the past. Once the rennaisance inevitably happens, the papal states and other european countries will be focused on wars of their own, and crusading will be less appealing to funders. Plus, crusading will look barbarous for people who are going by the renaissance indivisualism and simply be left behind in terms of culture in their western european cousins, which means rich people won't support the crusading culture anymore. Sure they can rely on Byzantium, but Byzantium will sooner or later start seeing crusader states as a nuisance.

If we want the crusader polities to survive, renaissance era is where they would probably end.

I completely disagree, i don't think its a given that they would instantly become disunited after taking Egypt, quite the opposite actually, whoever get control of Egypt would likely have the wealth and resources to enforce crusader unity if not directly unifying them under crusader Egypt. and its not like they will be lacking external enemies, from Byzantium which would likely at least become a rival to whoever is in control of Mesopotamia will still pose a real threat.

Also I don't see why it would become a relic of the past, it would have succeed and proved the legitimacy of the crusader ideal which would almost certainly shape how said state is perceived. And tbh catholic Europe was still extremely religious even in the renaissance period, and its unlikely that they would see the crusader states as barbarous, rather they would probably still get large amounts of support from the extremely devout and influential Catholics throughout Europe. That honestly sounds like a modern day secular/anti imperialist view of the crusades as opposed to how people historically thought of them.
 
I completely disagree, i don't think its a given that they would instantly become disunited after taking Egypt, quite the opposite actually, whoever get control of Egypt would likely have the wealth and resources to enforce crusader unity if not directly unifying them under crusader Egypt. and its not like they will be lacking external enemies, from Byzantium which would likely at least become a rival to whoever is in control of Mesopotamia will still pose a real threat.

Also I don't see why it would become a relic of the past, it would have succeed and proved the legitimacy of the crusader ideal which would almost certainly shape how said state is perceived. And tbh catholic Europe was still extremely religious even in the renaissance period, and its unlikely that they would see the crusader states as barbarous, rather they would probably still get large amounts of support from the extremely devout and influential Catholics throughout Europe. That honestly sounds like a modern day secular/anti imperialist view of the crusades as opposed to how people historically thought of them.
Okay I gotta admit, #2 wasn't an valid point. But egypt is a rich land, and people are definitely going to dispute over who will be owning that land. In fact, if there is a plan for egypt to get sacked, disputes between various people on who got the best claim for egypt is probably going to be one of the topic after that happens.
 

trajen777

Banned
I don't think the crusaders would survive past the rennaisance era even if they sacked egypt. Why?
1. Disunity. Even if they are united for now, as they are surrounded by many sides. But once they destroy egypt, it's primary enemy, they would compete on who is getting egypt, and may start to see their own knights as a bigger enemy than the saracens.

2. It's going to be a relic of the past. Once the rennaisance inevitably happens, the papal states and other european countries will be focused on wars of their own, and crusading will be less appealing to funders. Plus, crusading will look barbarous for people who are going by the renaissance indivisualism and simply be left behind in terms of culture in their western european cousins, which means rich people won't support the crusading culture anymore. Sure they can rely on Byzantium, but Byzantium will sooner or later start seeing crusader states as a nuisance.

If we want the crusader polities to survive, renaissance era is where they would probably end.


I don't really see this happening.

Egypt once captured would offer an area that is difficult to capture with the Crusaders holding the Sinai and with the Liberian desert on the other side. The revenue generated from Egypt would make the Crusader states a very powerful force, with endless opportunities to hire merc from w Europe etc.

As to the 2nd point a strong Byz really curtails (or dramatically reduces it) the Renaissance and the might and wealth of the Italian states. Their financial growth was a direct result of taking over the trade of the Byz empire, the Black seas trade, the silk trade, and the trade with the east. IN this case they are out of the Black sea, they will have the Byz controlling the trade routes to the east, and the exiles that drove much of the Renaissance will never arrive from Byz.
 
I don't think the crusaders would survive past the rennaisance era even if they sacked egypt. Why?
1. Disunity. Even if they are united for now, as they are surrounded by many sides. But once they destroy egypt, it's primary enemy, they would compete on who is getting egypt, and may start to see their own knights as a bigger enemy than the saracens.

2. It's going to be a relic of the past. Once the rennaisance inevitably happens, the papal states and other european countries will be focused on wars of their own, and crusading will be less appealing to funders. Plus, crusading will look barbarous for people who are going by the renaissance indivisualism and simply be left behind in terms of culture in their western european cousins, which means rich people won't support the crusading culture anymore. Sure they can rely on Byzantium, but Byzantium will sooner or later start seeing crusader states as a nuisance.

If we want the crusader polities to survive, renaissance era is where they would probably end.
Funny,the Rennaisance period is when Europe itself gets torn apart by sectarian religious wars.
 
If this TL is going to balance a resurgence Rhomania with a lasting Crusader state perhaps after Anatolia and perhaps Armenia is secured the Empire cna look West? In OTL Manuel I took Bosnia and Croatia and had ambitions to retake Sicily. If the Crusaders take Egypt and prevent Roman expansion South it seems to be the natural course of action.
 
If this TL is going to balance a resurgence Rhomania with a lasting Crusader state perhaps after Anatolia and perhaps Armenia is secured the Empire cna look West? In OTL Manuel I took Bosnia and Croatia and had ambitions to retake Sicily. If the Crusaders take Egypt and prevent Roman expansion South it seems to be the natural course of action.
I think Egypt is gonna be where the ERE falls out with the Crusaders if the Crusaders took it with Roman help.IOTL,they never clarified how they divide the spoils of war and the Jerusalemites intentionally sabotaged the joint invasion in order to try and get the entirety of Egypt for themselves.
 
@Rdffigueira Was Stephen of Blois the principal reason that Alexios abandoned the Crusaders in OTL or did other deserters information play a role?

Also, did the Crusaders oaths include restoring all conquered territory that was previously under the Byzantines back to the Byzantines?
 

trajen777

Banned
I think Egypt is gonna be where the ERE falls out with the Crusaders if the Crusaders took it with Roman help.IOTL,they never clarified how they divide the spoils of war and the Jerusalemites intentionally sabotaged the joint invasion in order to try and get the entirety of Egypt for themselves.

This is true -- however you have a much better relationship here, between the Crusaders and the Byz. Perhaps a divide along the Nile, or Alexandra to Byz.
 
If this TL is going to balance a resurgence Rhomania with a lasting Crusader state perhaps after Anatolia and perhaps Armenia is secured the Empire cna look West? In OTL Manuel I took Bosnia and Croatia and had ambitions to retake Sicily. If the Crusaders take Egypt and prevent Roman expansion South it seems to be the natural course of action.

Armenia will still take some time. It is a complete mess of Turkish beyliks, native Armenian strongmen and even Kurdish warlords, this without saying that the remnant of the Great Seljuk empire will put up a fight, as it jeopardizes their main possessions in Iraq, Persia and Azerbaijan.

Afterwards, we'll see what happens. In the Balkans, an encroachment in Bosnia and Croatia will result in an inevitable Hungarian reaction - IOTL Manuel Komnenos won the fight, indeed, but the the "Byzantine" dominion didn't last - but then there are also the Cumans whatever new threat comes from the Pontic Steppe.

I think Egypt is gonna be where the ERE falls out with the Crusaders if the Crusaders took it with Roman help.IOTL,they never clarified how they divide the spoils of war and the Jerusalemites intentionally sabotaged the joint invasion in order to try and get the entirety of Egypt for themselves.

This is true -- however you have a much better relationship here, between the Crusaders and the Byz. Perhaps a divide along the Nile, or Alexandra to Byz.

Indeed, darthfanta brought a good point. Though, hard as it may be, the interested parties might find an agreement regarding Egypt.

In any case, first Lebanon, then Syria, and finally Egypt.
 
Armenia will still take some time. It is a complete mess of Turkish beyliks, native Armenian strongmen and even Kurdish warlords, this without saying that the remnant of the Great Seljuk empire will put up a fight, as it jeopardizes their main possessions in Iraq, Persia and Azerbaijan.

Afterwards, we'll see what happens. In the Balkans, an encroachment in Bosnia and Croatia will result in an inevitable Hungarian reaction - IOTL Manuel Komnenos won the fight, indeed, but the the "Byzantine" dominion didn't last - but then there are also the Cumans whatever new threat comes from the Pontic Steppe.





Indeed, darthfanta brought a good point. Though, hard as it may be, the interested parties might find an agreement regarding Egypt.

In any case, first Lebanon, then Syria, and finally Egypt.
Are there any plans for Damascus?
 
Afterwards, we'll see what happens. In the Balkans, an encroachment in Bosnia and Croatia will result in an inevitable Hungarian reaction - IOTL Manuel Komnenos won the fight, indeed, but the the "Byzantine" dominion didn't last - but then there are also the Cumans whatever new threat comes from the Pontic Steppe.
To be fair, Bosnia and Croatia were lost during the regency for Alexios II, a stronger Rhomania would be in a better position hold onto these territories.
A new threat from the Steppe?
 

trajen777

Banned
I've always felt the Crusaders not taking the inland cities whereby the Muslims could have financial and military bases to launch attacks was a major reason for the collapse. If Aleppo could have been taken (the joint campaign with John ), and Damascus with the third Crusade would have allowed the following
1. Better finances
2. No northern or eastern base to attack the KOJ (this would lead to safer interior for KOJ)
3. A very weak Fatimid Egypt that would have been at the Crusaders mercy (leading to a conquest) in 1169 - 71 (when KOJ occupied and were hired to protect Adid.
 
This is true -- however you have a much better relationship here, between the Crusaders and the Byz. Perhaps a divide along the Nile, or Alexandra to Byz.

Armenia will still take some time. It is a complete mess of Turkish beyliks, native Armenian strongmen and even Kurdish warlords, this without saying that the remnant of the Great Seljuk empire will put up a fight, as it jeopardizes their main possessions in Iraq, Persia and Azerbaijan.

Afterwards, we'll see what happens. In the Balkans, an encroachment in Bosnia and Croatia will result in an inevitable Hungarian reaction - IOTL Manuel Komnenos won the fight, indeed, but the the "Byzantine" dominion didn't last - but then there are also the Cumans whatever new threat comes from the Pontic Steppe.





Indeed, darthfanta brought a good point. Though, hard as it may be, the interested parties might find an agreement regarding Egypt.

In any case, first Lebanon, then Syria, and finally Egypt.
Egypt,it seems,is one of those places where you either take the whole thing or none at all.I’m not sure why.I have a feeling that despite whatever agreement‘s in place,the other side will probably try to take over the other part as soon as an opportunity presents itself.
 
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Are there any plans for Damascus?

There are. Damascus will be taken by the Crusaders. I know it sounds gimmicky when I say like this, but this is a Crusader-survival TL after all, and there were Historical attempts of capturing Damascus, so it was certainly a target pursued by the KOJ. In the end, central Syria will have to be secured for Jerusalem to survive, and the storyline will inevitably go in this direction.

To be fair, Bosnia and Croatia were lost during the regency for Alexios II, a stronger Rhomania would be in a better position hold onto these territories. A new threat from the Steppe?

Good point, I'll take this in consideration. Nonetheless, I tend to think that the Empire's focus will be ever towards Asia.

Regarding the steppes, I wasn't saying thinking of anything especific, just pointing out that the Cumans were at the time a formidable enemy to be reckoned with, much like any other nomadic empire that may rise from Central Asia.

I've always felt the Crusaders not taking the inland cities whereby the Muslims could have financial and military bases to launch attacks was a major reason for the collapse. If Aleppo could have been taken (the joint campaign with John ), and Damascus with the third Crusade would have allowed the following
1. Better finances
2. No northern or eastern base to attack the KOJ (this would lead to safer interior for KOJ)
3. A very weak Fatimid Egypt that would have been at the Crusaders mercy (leading to a conquest) in 1169 - 71 (when KOJ occupied and were hired to protect Adid.

Yes, I agree with your whole points. To be fair, the Crusaders tried to take Damascus and Aleppo, even if in half-assed attempted, but, again, their poor relationship with Byzantium, as well as the poor relationship between the French King and the German Emperor in OTL Second Crusade prevented the necessary cooperation to take these provinces, and they in turn fell to the opportunistic Zengids. ITTL, the divergences are already accumulating, and we are paving the way for a different scenario.

Now that I come to think about it, I'd say that what will happen ITTL is that the Crusaders themselves will do exactly what Zengi of Mosul did IOTL: take the opportunity to expand once the local emirates have been weakened by other wars against non-Christian enemies - and with full-fledged Byzantine support.

Egypt,it seems,is one of those places where you either take the whole thing or none at all.I’m not sure why.I have a feeling that despite whatever agreement‘s in place,the other side will probably try to take over the other part as soon as an opportunity presents itself.

I understand exactly what you are saying. I suppose that the geography leads to this: the Egyptian civilization exists along the Nile valley, and spreads in the Delta. The settlements in the Red Sea coast, with a few exceptions, are small and insignificant in relation to the central region of the country, as are the various oases in the western deserts. A west/east partition of Egypt (using the Nile itself as a line) would be frankly bizarre and unfeasible, considering that any side would desire the other side, and a north/south division (perhaps with a line in Ushmunayn, the Crusaders in the north and the remnant Egyptian sultanate in the south) would not last indefinitely, as the northern half would have much more resources and manpower, but would nevertheless be interested in annexing the whole country to eliminate a potential threat.
 
I understand exactly what you are saying. I suppose that the geography leads to this: the Egyptian civilization exists along the Nile valley, and spreads in the Delta. The settlements in the Red Sea coast, with a few exceptions, are small and insignificant in relation to the central region of the country, as are the various oases in the western deserts. A west/east partition of Egypt (using the Nile itself as a line) would be frankly bizarre and unfeasible, considering that any side would desire the other side, and a north/south division (perhaps with a line in Ushmunayn, the Crusaders in the north and the remnant Egyptian sultanate in the south) would not last indefinitely, as the northern half would have much more resources and manpower, but would nevertheless be interested in annexing the whole country to eliminate a potential threat.
Most Copts are in Upper Egypt so if the Delta is conquered there is no reason why the Southern part wouldn't collapse, more so when the population is not that big there either.
 
Most Copts are in Upper Egypt so if the Delta is conquered there is no reason why the Southern part wouldn't collapse, more so when the population is not that big there either.
So, one possibility would be a division of Egypt between a European-led Crusader state in the Delta/Lower Egypt, and a Coptic state in Upper Egypt that's allied with the Crusaders.
 
24. Reinforcements from France and Toulouse (1104/1109)
Another chapter for the record. The previous chapter had a timeskip that took our TL to 1109, but this one here is situated earlier in 1104, a brief "flashback" that has a great narrative importance, as you will see, due to the introduction of Bertrand, Prince Raymond's son.

__________________________________________________________________________________


Sem título.jpg


Bertrand of Toulouse, represented in an illuminated miniature from the 12th Century. The tower besides him represents the Citadel of Toulouse, which he reformed with great expense, shortly before he departed to the Outremer, never to return home.


In late 1104, an army arrived in Naples [Napule] coming from northern France, from a tiny fief named Roucy. Its leaders were the scions of the Montdidier family, Guiscard and Thomas, both sons of Ebles II of Roucy. Their father had been a proud and adventurous warlord, who had travelled to Spain, to fight the Moors in Barbastro, and to Italy, where he became an ally and friend of Bohemond’s father (Robert Guiscard) and participated on the invasion of Greece in the 1080s. In fact, Ebles’ sons were fruits of the womb of Sibylla [Sibylle] – Bohemond’s paternal half-sister – which thus made Guiscard and Thomas nephews of the mighty Norman lord currently living in the Outremer. Now, Count Ebles had lived long enough to hear about Pope Urban II’s to the First Crusade, but, surprisingly, he did not partake in it, even if he had a dream of obtaining for his descendants a princedom more wealthy and prestigious than the boorish plains of Roucy and Ramerupt.

The Montdidier brothers, who had marched straight from France – together with their cousin, the Count of Perche, Rotrou III, and with the young Lord of Bourbon, Archambaud VI – and were received by their maternal uncle, the Duke of Apulia and Calabria, Roger I Borsa, where they happily announced their intent of going to Greece and then to Asia to undertake the “holiest expedition”.

Duke Roger might have been (yet again) embittered to see another great army passing through his duchy to follow an almost-certain death course together with his estranged half-brother Bohemond, with whom he had fought a bloody war decades before. Nevertheless, the Italo-Norman count understood the inestimable value and reward that was to conduct such a sublime pilgrimage in the name of Christ, and, for these relatives who had been conceived in the other side of the continent, he would offer full cooperation.

Firstly, he warned his nephews against going overland through Greece and Asia, citing the various perils and tribulations suffered by the previous expeditions of the Paupers’ Crusade, of the Normans and Toulousains, and of the French, Lombards and Germans, with many perishing not only by the hands of the Turks but also by hunger and thirst, considering that the “Greek” emperor was a deceitful and heartless tyrant, who had given them rotten food and poisoned water; evidently a scathing calumny owing from the hostile relationshipe between the Rhōmaîoi and the Italo-Normans. Roger recommended that the army of France should sail directly from Italy across the Mediterranean, and, indeed, there were flotillas from Amalfi and Messina [Missina] voyaging on yearly basis to the Holy Land who might transport these new carriers of the cross-emblem.

Then, the Norman Duke of the Mezzogiorno explained, then, that a fleet of Crusaders coming from Narbonne had, in that very week, anchored in Reggio di Calabria, and from there they would voyage to the Outremer. This Narbonnais expedition was commanded by none other than Bertrand [Bertran] of Toulouse, firstborn of Raymond of St. Giles. The fleet was intercepted by the Duke's messengers before it departed from Reggio di Calabria, and in a sensible letter, Roger I Borsa asked the Toulousains to wait for the newly-arrived pilgrims, to which Bertrand agreed, and they then travelled together to Jerusalem.

*****​

The pilgrims disembarked in Jaffa in late 1104, and celebrated Christmas in Jerusalem itself, praying in the Temple of Solomon, in a grand ceremony presided by Archbishop Gerard of Amalfi.

The arrival of a host from Europe was received with applauses and celebrations by the Franco-Levantine settlers of Palestine. It is estimated that this combined Toulousain and French agglomeration of arrivals might have amounted to some 2.000 and up to 3.000 men (based on the number of ships that departed from Reggio), a substantial number, considering that, by 1105, the whole of Jerusalem might be hosting any figure between 9.000 to 12.000 Latins, comprising a cosmopolitan and unleveled mixture of Toulousains, Provençals, Lorrainers and Italo-Normans from the First Crusade, and handfuls of Bavarians, Burgundians, Aquitanians and Lombards from the Crusade of 1101.

By 1104, most of the magnates of the “After-Crusade” had returned to Europe, with but Welf I of Bavaria and William IX of Aquitaine still present in the Outremer, and a myriad of other minor barons, cavaliers and bishops spread across forts, manors and walled towns, including adventurers in Rhōmaîon Syria and in Crusader Edessa, such as the brave and devout Godfrey of St. Omer [Godefroi de Saint Omer], who would go to Armenia with a cadre of Flemish and French adventurers, then successfully storm the citadel of Kaysun [Çakırhüyük], in an abortive attempt of creating another Frankish state – the “County of Cazòne” –, neighboring the County of Edessa.

*****​

Bertrand of Toulouse came to Jerusalem at request of his father, who had, after Alfonso-Jordan’s birth, sent his newborn child back to Toulouse in 1103 A.D. In that year, Alfonso-Jordan had been placed in the throne of Toulouse with his mother, Elvira of Castille, as a regent, while Bertrand went in his place to the Orient, bringing with himself, by orders of his father, able-bodied knights and volunteers to settle in the east. Bertrand, even with all resentment, was ever dutiful to his father and lord, and immediately complied.

Now, upon meeting his old and tired father - whom he had not seen for almost 8 years, but seemed to have aged 20 - he could barely contain the wrath and indignation, feeling genuinely punished for his many years of reverential obedience. He had given his blood for his father's titles and holdings, when the despicable Duke of Aquitaine marched against the citadel of Toulouse, fighting the invading armies of Aquitaine and Gascony, when William "the Troubadour" - who was, even now, in the Holy Land - besieged Toulouse and forced him to escape to Provence like a cornered dog. Now, in Jerusalem, he demanded satisfaction, fearing to have been stripped from the inheritance.

Only Raymond of Aguilers [Raimon d'Aguilers] narrates, in a brief passage, that the lord of St. Giles convinced his son Bertrand to remain at his side in the Orient, fearing for the life of his infant son. Even if the realm itself was sacred, the “kingdom” was in eternal peril, surrounded by powerful conquerors, and, even inside, there might be wicked souls working to undo the divine work prosecuted by Duke Raymond and his followers. He was, of course, referring to the Italo-Norman party and their Lombard and Aquitanian allies. Thus, Raymond believed that young Alfonso had no conditions of remaining in the Outremer, while back home he might be protected and instructed by the county’s vassals. Bertrand, even if he expected to inherit Toulouse, was an experienced adult, and could very well continue his father’s purpose in securing the saintly realm against the infidels. We cannot imagine what Bertrand made of these answers; perhaps he was disappointed, perhaps he accepted the task with resolve out of filial piety. Nonetheless, it is a fact that he chose to remain the Levant, and would never return to Europe – now created the castellan of Acre and Hebron – even after his father’s death in 1108. He would thenceforward become a pivotal player in the problematic Jerusalemite political arena, and a stalwart rival of the Italo-Normans, a representative of the so-called Toulousain party [obviously an anachronistic deviation created by later historians].

Bertrand’s permanence in the Holy Land, however, would create a vacuum of power back in Toulouse, and only the presence of the infant Alfonso-Jordan as the heir-apparent of the county would provide little obstacle to the ambitions and greed of William IX, the Duke of Aquitaine, after he returns to Europe (not long after Raymond’s death) to press his wife’s Phillipa’s claim to the fief of Toulouse.

___________________________________

Notes and comments: Dramatic and bizarre as it may seem, the episode involving the "substitution" for Bertrand in Toulouse by his infant brother Alfonso-Jordan happened exactly like that IOTL. I obviously added some drama to the fictionalized portrayal of this first meeting between the newly arrived Bertrand and his father Raymond. The invasion of Toulouse by William IX of Aquitaine did happen historically, but later he "mortgaged" the fief back to Bertrand to raise funds for his participation in the Crusade of 1101, this also happens here without changes. From there onwards, however, the divergences become more noticeable: while IOTL the pretendents to Raymond's inheritance as the Count of Tripoli were disputed by Bertrand of Toulouse and his maternal cousin William-Jordan of Cerdanya (who had come to Jerusalem in the First Crusade with Raymond), ITTL, considering that William is already enfeoffed with his own barony (Gaza), he will lack any interests to put him at odds with Bertrand, and they will instead grow to be allies in the Jerusalemite politics, forming the "Toulousain faction".

Just to clarify: I'm using more modern terms such as "party" and "faction" to better represent the political allegiances that will arise in the next few decades of Levantine history. They are not "official" parties in our modern sense, but rather groups of interests that orbit around the aristocratic families with common traits and customs, such as the Norman families, the Occitan dynasties, the Lorrainers that remain in Palestine after Godfrey of Bouillon's death, and so forth.
 
So, one possibility would be a division of Egypt between a European-led Crusader state in the Delta/Lower Egypt, and a Coptic state in Upper Egypt that's allied with the Crusaders.

A very interesting possibility that I actually had failed to consider. My intention would be for the Crusaders to have the whole of Fatimid Egypt, so as to guarantee its survival, but I think that a continued relationship between the Catholic Franks and a neighboring polity of Egyptian Copts presents some fascinating possibilities.
 
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