Yeah Wikipedia wasn’t helpful in finding info about the region. Maybe they decide to work with Christians in the region to gain independence from Muslims and then work their way from there?
And All Nations Shall Gather To It - Volume I: The Abode of Peace
- Thread starter Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)
- Start date
I'm not sure if they lagged so far behind either. Old Gorganj/Urgench was devastated by the Mongols but it was rebuilt by the Turks. Then that was destroyed much more thoroughly by Timur-- but also, the Amu Darya shifted away from the old city, so there was no point rebuilding. After this Khiva City took its place, and a new Urgench was founded much later. But, this TL doesn't have to have a Timur. Or it might have one, but Gorganj doesn't have to rebel against him and get razed to the ground. But even then, the river shifting course will doom the city in the long term, its population will just move to a new site and build a new city.
I guess Merv/Mary fell to the wayside permanently, it was not rebuilt or replaced by some other nearby city. But it looks like rebuilding was done throughout Khwarezm to the extent which Turkmen raiding allowed.
Sure, this still leaves Khwarezm as a very small territory, probably a lot of damage to irrigation works that later governments were too buys fighting to repair. Khivan Khwarezm played second fiddle to Bukharan Transoxiana and Ferghana. But was Khwarezm itself as proportionally important to the Khwarezm-Shahs as their other possessions? The Khwarezmshahs were Turks, so the strength of their army didn't entirely depend on the amount of land under a plow-- they could draw on pastoral populations too. Khwarezm might offer a potent image of paradise lost but we might be overrating its performance before the Mongols and underrating its performance after.
Don't exist yet
and there's no guarantee that they will. They're just Flemish, Brabantines, Frisians, and others for the time being. And, there's no guarantee that whoever does mess around in Asia on their behalf does it in the same way as the OTL Dutch.The Latins had better be careful though-- if the Ethiopian kings still claim Solomonic ancestry and unswerving adherence to Coptic Christianity, they might just claim the crown of Egypt should the opportunity ever arise-- a serious civil war in Egypt for example.
I can see the Latins running into a similar problem in Nubia-- this land has very little experience of direct Islamic rule aside from whatever attention Kanz ad-Dawla can spare from holding down Upper Egypt. After that there may still be rogue tribes of Arab and African Muslim cowherds, but aside from that it's a nearly 100% Coptic society. If the old Makurian and Alodian kingdoms are allowed to remain, then... well, they'll keep to themselves. They better watch out for climactic shifts or those cowherds might successfully take over. But if the Latins come in (maybe chasing Kanz ad Dawla or his successors) and stay, the Nubians may not have much patience for Latins awarding themselves fiefs if they don't go into the desert and make themselves useful.
Although that make be easier said than done-- the Islamization of present day Chad, either through the Sao city states or the Kanem Empire, isn't something Europe can really stop (Trans-Saharan trade will likely only deepen in economic and religious significance). And Chad is connected by trade and pastoral routes to Darfur, and then on to Nubia... the Red Sea and the internal Muslim population might be high on Egypt's list of concerns but really it's the Sahara that will deliver steady, incessant pinpricks of raids and rebellions, each with a chance of evolving into something far more dangerous (Islam will supply organization to confederations of Shuwa/Baggara Arabs, Toubou, and other peoples, and a focus/justification for their raids-- it will become the basis for small but bothersome polities like Wadai and Darfur). Nor do the Egyptians have any easy way of policing the Sahara before... well, whatever the French did. I'll have to read this book-- looks like it was a very case by case thing, and never quite secure until trucks, machine guns, and planes entered the scene.
The Conquest of the Sahara
In The Conquest of the Sahara, Douglas Porch tells the story of France's struggle to explore and dominate the great African desert at the turn of the century.Focusing on the conquest of the Ahaggar Tuareg, a Berber people living in a mountain area in central Sahara, he goes on to describe the...
books.google.com
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If Crusader Egypt allies with Nubian Christian polities to fight Muslims it could lead to better relations maybe? That would be my guess in order for things between the Crusaders and native Christians to go well.I'm not sure if they lagged so far behind either. Old Gorganj/Urgench was devastated by the Mongols but it was rebuilt by the Turks. Then that was destroyed much more thoroughly by Timur-- but also, the Amu Darya shifted away from the old city, so there was no point rebuilding. After this Khiva City took its place, and a new Urgench was founded much later. But, this TL doesn't have to have a Timur. Or it might have one, but Gorganj doesn't have to rebel against him and get razed to the ground. But even then, the river shifting course will doom the city in the long term, its population will just move to a new site and build a new city.
I guess Merv/Mary fell to the wayside permanently, it was not rebuilt or replaced by some other nearby city. But it looks like rebuilding was done throughout Khwarezm to the extent which Turkmen raiding allowed.
Sure, this still leaves Khwarezm as a very small territory, probably a lot of damage to irrigation works that later governments were too buys fighting to repair. Khivan Khwarezm played second fiddle to Bukharan Transoxiana and Ferghana. But was Khwarezm itself as proportionally important to the Khwarezm-Shahs as their other possessions? The Khwarezmshahs were Turks, so the strength of their army didn't entirely depend on the amount of land under a plow-- they could draw on pastoral populations too. Khwarezm might offer a potent image of paradise lost but we might be overrating its performance before the Mongols and underrating its performance after.
Don't exist yet
The Latins had better be careful though-- if the Ethiopian kings still claim Solomonic ancestry and unswerving adherence to Coptic Christianity, they might just claim the crown of Egypt should the opportunity ever arise-- a serious civil war in Egypt for example.
I can see the Latins running into a similar problem in Nubia-- this land has very little experience of direct Islamic rule aside from whatever attention Kanz ad-Dawla can spare from holding down Upper Egypt. After that there may still be rogue tribes of Arab and African Muslim cowherds, but aside from that it's a nearly 100% Coptic society. If the old Makurian and Alodian kingdoms are allowed to remain, then... well, they'll keep to themselves. They better watch out for climactic shifts or those cowherds might successfully take over. But if the Latins come in (maybe chasing Kanz ad Dawla or his successors) and stay, the Nubians may not have much patience for Latins awarding themselves fiefs if they don't go into the desert and make themselves useful.
Although that make be easier said than done-- the Islamization of present day Chad, either through the Sao city states or the Kanem Empire, isn't something Europe can really stop (Trans-Saharan trade will likely only deepen in economic and religious significance). And Chad is connected by trade and pastoral routes to Darfur, and then on to Nubia... the Red Sea and the internal Muslim population might be high on Egypt's list of concerns but really it's the Sahara that will deliver steady, incessant pinpricks of raids and rebellions, each with a chance of evolving into something far more dangerous (Islam will supply organization to confederations of Shuwa/Baggara Arabs, Toubou, and other peoples, and a focus/justification for their raids). Nor do the Egyptians have any easy way of policing the Sahara before... well, whatever the French did. I'll have to read this book-- looks like it was a very case by case thing, and never quite secure until trucks, machine guns, and planes entered the scene.
The Conquest of the Sahara
In The Conquest of the Sahara, Douglas Porch tells the story of France's struggle to explore and dominate the great African desert at the turn of the century.Focusing on the conquest of the Ahaggar Tuareg, a Berber people living in a mountain area in central Sahara, he goes on to describe the...books.google.com
What makes you think the mongols are gonna be able to get through Constantinople when Atilla and the Arabs couldn't? Especially since the Romans will be using Greek fire, will have their navy to supply and defend the city as well as their European possessions on the other side?
Rampage through Anatolia in case they don't surrender and agree to pay tribute? I agree, but actually being able to topple Constantinople? I don't see it
Yeah but during the 4th Crusade they had support of the biggest navy in Europe and the Mediterranean in the form of Venice, had been invited explicitly by the Emperor who wanted them to help him fight in the civil war and used his loyalists to help them enter the city. Stuff none of the mongols will have.
Tbf they just have to destroy Anatolia and cut off Constantinople's access to Anatolia long enough to collapse/permanently weaken the Empire. They'd just be lucky if they breach Constantinople, but I'd like it if they hold at the end.
The Arabs were in the exact same position where they managed to do the same yet because they couldn't penetrate into European Byzantium, nor isolate it by sea they couldn't force it to collapse and they eventually left because they realized they would be opening themselves for counter attacks, the Mongols won't be any different unless they can somehow fully cross the Bosporus and land into the mountainous Balkan region and try to cut off Constantinople from the rest of the provinces, and even then they wouldn't have the navy to starve it out because the Empire's navy would just keep resupplying the city as well as be helped by the other christian powers
It would be pretty interesting seeing a Egypt ruled by the Ethiopians, especially because Byzantium would love to have a second power who could act as a counterbalance to the power of the latins...I'm not sure if they lagged so far behind either. Old Gorganj/Urgench was devastated by the Mongols but it was rebuilt by the Turks. Then that was destroyed much more thoroughly by Timur-- but also, the Amu Darya shifted away from the old city, so there was no point rebuilding. After this Khiva City took its place, and a new Urgench was founded much later. But, this TL doesn't have to have a Timur. Or it might have one, but Gorganj doesn't have to rebel against him and get razed to the ground. But even then, the river shifting course will doom the city in the long term, its population will just move to a new site and build a new city.
I guess Merv/Mary fell to the wayside permanently, it was not rebuilt or replaced by some other nearby city. But it looks like rebuilding was done throughout Khwarezm to the extent which Turkmen raiding allowed.
Sure, this still leaves Khwarezm as a very small territory, probably a lot of damage to irrigation works that later governments were too buys fighting to repair. Khivan Khwarezm played second fiddle to Bukharan Transoxiana and Ferghana. But was Khwarezm itself as proportionally important to the Khwarezm-Shahs as their other possessions? The Khwarezmshahs were Turks, so the strength of their army didn't entirely depend on the amount of land under a plow-- they could draw on pastoral populations too. Khwarezm might offer a potent image of paradise lost but we might be overrating its performance before the Mongols and underrating its performance after.
Don't exist yet
The Latins had better be careful though-- if the Ethiopian kings still claim Solomonic ancestry and unswerving adherence to Coptic Christianity, they might just claim the crown of Egypt should the opportunity ever arise-- a serious civil war in Egypt for example.
I can see the Latins running into a similar problem in Nubia-- this land has very little experience of direct Islamic rule aside from whatever attention Kanz ad-Dawla can spare from holding down Upper Egypt. After that there may still be rogue tribes of Arab and African Muslim cowherds, but aside from that it's a nearly 100% Coptic society. If the old Makurian and Alodian kingdoms are allowed to remain, then... well, they'll keep to themselves. They better watch out for climactic shifts or those cowherds might successfully take over. But if the Latins come in (maybe chasing Kanz ad Dawla or his successors) and stay, the Nubians may not have much patience for Latins awarding themselves fiefs if they don't go into the desert and make themselves useful.
Although that make be easier said than done-- the Islamization of present day Chad, either through the Sao city states or the Kanem Empire, isn't something Europe can really stop (Trans-Saharan trade will likely only deepen in economic and religious significance). And Chad is connected by trade and pastoral routes to Darfur, and then on to Nubia... the Red Sea and the internal Muslim population might be high on Egypt's list of concerns but really it's the Sahara that will deliver steady, incessant pinpricks of raids and rebellions, each with a chance of evolving into something far more dangerous (Islam will supply organization to confederations of Shuwa/Baggara Arabs, Toubou, and other peoples, and a focus/justification for their raids-- it will become the basis for small but bothersome polities like Wadai and Darfur). Nor do the Egyptians have any easy way of policing the Sahara before... well, whatever the French did. I'll have to read this book-- looks like it was a very case by case thing, and never quite secure until trucks, machine guns, and planes entered the scene.
The Conquest of the Sahara
In The Conquest of the Sahara, Douglas Porch tells the story of France's struggle to explore and dominate the great African desert at the turn of the century.Focusing on the conquest of the Ahaggar Tuareg, a Berber people living in a mountain area in central Sahara, he goes on to describe the...books.google.com
I mean, we're forgetting here that unlike the Arabs the Mongols can circle around through the Pontic Steppe. As long as they don't break into defacto different Khanates, they'll be able to do it and arrive from Anatolia and the North of Bulgaria(which if independent would probably be experiencing vassal status).
Even if constantinople doesn't fall, with both European and Anatolian Byzantium ravaged, it becomes a matter of time until the city declines enough to be taken.
Ethiopia is way too far to do such a thing. More likely there’ll be Ethiopian-Latin cooperation than conflict. At least for the time period.
My thoughts about it exactly. Even if the Mongols don't get to the Balkans (and no nomadic group goes through Ukraine into ERE territory) breaking Anatolia would mean the Empire loses its heartlands. That basically means the ERE would fall in the long term.
Speaking of the fall of the ERE, it'd be interesting if the Crusader states still fall in the end after all of their successes. Would be an interesting twist for a Crusader-wank TL.
Yeah, I don't know why the guy just skipped mentioning Nubia.
Well, maybe not into Anatolia itself but the Pechenegs and Cumans raided ERE European holdings.
Something I hope gets explored is a Norman Southern Italy that retains its independence and identity. I assume the POD hasn't changed the fact that Normans conquered their OTL part of North Africa. But by around 1160 in OTL the Normans lost it. Anything differently going on there this time? Also does a more powerful Rhomania mean that they’ll consider going after the Normans as payback for attacking them?
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I defo was thinking about the Balkans sorry about that, but the Pechenegs settling in Bulgaria or the Pannonian plain would be interesting and a reverse of otl.
Tbf idc unless the Muslims get back and take the lands, but considering it seems most of me except Arabia proper would be controlled by Christian polities it'd be interesting how it'd shake out.
Right now I think the Muslims got Norman Africa back if the POD didn’t change anything there. Because I don’t think there’s any evidence so far to say that something changed there.
Honestly I simply don't see it happening, the Mongols didn't fully annex the Balkans because they were already horrifically overextend already (as seen by the fact they didn't even reach the Black Sea) and simply content themselves into receiving tributes from defeated Serbia and Byzantines. So depending on how things go, we might see the Byzantines doing the same once their armies get trampled on especially given their situation of fragility is still around in some way.
The majority of populated Greek cities are in coastal Anatolia anyways so they can still be supplied and defended by the sea, which again, the mongols didn't have the ships to take them nor disrupt their supply lines, not to mention the difficult of moving their armies (especially one that relied on cavalry like the mongols) through mountains terrain the Byzantines are used to fighting, remember this isn't the same weakened empire from before but one who has (nominal) allies around them to help both in the Levant and in the Caucasus, they won't go down so easily.
Tbf just having the Mongols beat up the Penechegs that cause the Turkic group to migrate into Europe would cause chaos in the Balkans.
I do feel there's a possibility where the ERE basically marches in their army first, gets fucked over by the Mongols and making their job much much harder.