Ancient Geography Database

[Alex Richards]

Many thanks. All of those make perfect sense (and I already added them) except for the Atagis, because the Argens is located in the east. I just re-checked however and found out this: if I understand Ptolemy right, the Illeris, Ruscionis, Atagis, Orobis and Araurus rivers (in this order) have their mouths located along the Mediterranean between the Pyrenees and Sete, which would put them all somewhere in the southwest.

Otherwise, I'm looking for my next additions towards the British Isles, the Iberian Penninsula and the Alpine region... any preferences what to finish first, folks?

OK, in that case, the following should work out:

Illeris: From the location, probably the Teche.
Ruscionis: From the Location, probably the Tet(Probably the origin of Rousillion, of which the Tet forms the northern border (near enough))
Atragis: Aude
Orobis: Orb
Araurus: Hérault

And the Vidrus could be the Ijssel, though the Dutch have made that hard to be sure about.

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

It's very common in Britain, not least because the mediaeval scholars often didn't know the original Latin name. For instance, Cambridge under the Romans was 'Duroliponte', but later scholars Latinised the modern English name to "Cantabrigia", hence why a degree from Cambridge is identified as (Cantab.)

However this isn't always the case--my hometown of Doncaster still had a lot of extant Roman sources and so is properly known by its original Roman name of Danum (though everyone pronounces it Day-num when in the Latin I think it should be Dann-um).

"Cantabrigia"? Sounds like a mix of "Cantabria" and "-briga" ("elevated", Celtic cognate with "-berg"/"-burg"). I wonder if that was intentional!

Cisalpine Gaul tribes (main)

Insubres
Orobii
Taurinii
Leponti
Boi
Senoni

You're getting a tad ahead of me here. I was going to get to Italy for quite a while yet.

About Franks: their ancestor were from modern Netherland, and soare their descendent after the fall of the frankish empire, so orange may be a possible color, but that would be confusing with the later "orangist" Nehterland (from William of Orange. Red for welsh/brittonic may actually be a good idea, as it would be "the land of the Great Red Dragon" (Penn Ddraigh Goch - Pendragon) so that may even become the color of a possible Camelot TL (Arthurwank!). The confusion with British pale red would not be a strict problem, as Henry I claimed descent from, and thus continuity with, the arthurian line, a rather tall tale but it sort of legitimized his claim to the throne and thus sort of the very existence of the British Empire as a whole, so it may be worthy to keep up the illusion. Scots and Picts would be some shade of green. Not fully convinced of the pale French option for Gaul, and for Cisalpine Gaul, but it may stand for the same reason of the Welsh red/British pale red option.

So, a proposed TCS (tribal colo(u)r scheme could be:

Welsh= red(dish)
Angles= pale red/pink
Saxons= pale gray
Picts= scottish green (?)
Franks= orange (french blue?)
Gaulish= pale french (pale green?)
Goths= dark gray (outlined for eastern/western Goths)
Frisians= ?

I wonder, with the Picts, why do they need a separate color? Otherwise, if they need to, I'd definitely suggest the Scottish TCS color, even though there's not much continuity between the Picts and the Scots.

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Part #9 - Britain

Time period: 2nd century AD

Overview:
The Greeks were aware of Britain since at least the 4th century BC (Pytheas of Massilia journeyed there, and he was also the first to use the name "Britain"). Even earlier, the term "Albion" is used by the Massaliote Periplus, and Herodotus mentions the term "Tin Isles", though with all likelihood, in this early time only the Phoenicians actually traded with Britain. The Romans arrived in Britain in the 1st century BC. I've allowed myself to split the tribes of Britain into the southern (Roman) part and the northern part, and the northern ("Pictish") part which the Romans never managed to subjugate. This is also a matter of practicality - data for the south is much more abundant and detailed, whereas for the north it's more guesswork. The dividing line between the two regions is approximatley the Hadrian's Wall.

I'd also leave a few words on the languages: in the bulk of Britain, the British language (also called "Common Brythonic") was spoken, a P-Celtic language, which later fragmented into Breton, Cornish and Welsh in the Medieval Ages. For the north, it's somewhat unclear what language the so-called "Picts" (note that this is a Roman-coined exonym, meaning "Painted Ones") actually spoke. The best guess ranges between merely a dialect of Brythonic towards a separate language related with British and Gaulish. Either way, Pictish was a certainly P-Celtic language.

Tribes of southern (Roman) Britain:
Atrebates - Silchester (Calleva Atebratum), also in Gaul
Belgae - Winchester (Venta Belgarum), also in Gaul
Brigantes - Aldborough (Isurium Brigantum), also in Ireland, Gallaecia and Vindelicia
Cantiaci - Canterbury, Kent (Durovernum Cantiacorum)
Carvetii - Carlisle (Luguvalium), probably clients of the Brigantes
Catuvellauni - St. Albans (Verulamium), may be related with the Catalauni of Gaul
Coritani or Corieltauvi - Leicester (Ratae Corieltauvorum)
Corionotatae - Northumberland
Cornovii - Wroxeter (Viroconium), also in Caledonia
Deceangi or Deceangli - northern Wales (Flintshire)
Demetae - Dyfed County, Wales
Dobunni - Cirencester (Corinium Dobunnorum)
Dumnonii - Exeter (Isca Dumnoniorum)
Duritriges - Dorchester (Durnovaria)
Iceni - Caistor St. Edmund, Norfolk (Venta Icenorum), Boudica's tribe
Ordovices - Central-northern Wales (Gwynedd)
Parisii - Brough, Yorkshire (Petuaria) - also in Gaul
Regnenses - Chichester (Noviomagus Reginorum)
Segantii or Setantii - Portus Setantiorum (near 53°53' N, 3°01' W), Lancashire
Silures - Southern Wales (Gwent)
Trinovantes - Colchester (Camulodunum), Essex
Votadini - East Lothian, Scotland

Tribes of northern ("Pictish") Britain:
Caereni - Southerland County
Caledonii - Central Highlands (however, the term "Caledonii" is also used apparently for a tribal confederation)
Carnonacae - Ross-shire County
Cornovii - Caithness County
Creones - Isles of Skye, Isle of Mull and adjacent coastal mainland
Damnonii - Central Scotland
Decantae - central part along the Moray Firth
Epidii - Argyll region
Lugi - northern part of the Moray Firth
Novantae - southwestern Scotland (former Galloway)
Selgovae - approximate area of Dumfries
Smertae - central Sutherland region
Taexali or Taezali - Buchan area
Vacomagi - Strathsprey region
Venicones - Firth of Tay area

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Finally, I reckon I can probably give a hand with some of the Mayan city states and British (though not Irish) Tribes of the immediate pre-conquest era.

Oh, I can help with Maya city-states as well. I know a lot of the original names of cities and the names of the kingdoms they ruled in a lot of cases. And I can help with the hierarchy between the states if need be.

Red for welsh/brittonic may actually be a good idea, as it would be "the land of the Great Red Dragon" (Penn Ddraigh Goch - Pendragon) so that may even become the color of a possible Camelot TL (Arthurwank!). The confusion with British pale red would not be a strict problem, as Henry I claimed descent from, and thus continuity with, the arthurian line, a rather tall tale but it sort of legitimized his claim to the throne and thus sort of the very existence of the British Empire as a whole, so it may be worthy to keep up the illusion.

I think red for Britons/Welsh is a good idea as well. In addition to the symbolism you mentioned, numerous ancient and even medieval historians noted their tendecy and preference for wearing red/scarlet into battle. It was a well loved color among them apparently.

I'd also leave a few words on the languages: in the bulk of Britain, the British language (also called "Common Brythonic") was spoken, a P-Celtic language, which later fragmented into Breton, Cornish and Welsh in the Medieval Ages. For the north, it's somewhat unclear what language the so-called "Picts" (note that this is a Roman-coined exonym, meaning "Painted Ones") actually spoke. The best guess ranges between merely a dialect of Brythonic towards a separate language related with British and Gaulish. Either way, Pictish was a certainly P-Celtic language.

I have heard that the name of the Picts was a coincidential pun for the Romans, as the name other peoples such as the Welsh used for them seems to be very similar so it's quite possible "Pict" or some variation of the word is in fact their actual name. It seems that the Welsh called them peithwyr, the Irish called them piccardach, the Scots used Pecht, the Old English Poehta, and the Norse Pettr.

 

[Thande]

"Cantabrigia"? Sounds like a mix of "Cantabria" and "-briga" ("elevated", Celtic cognate with "-berg"/"-burg"). I wonder if that was intentional!

Don't know. Might be, Cambridge has a lot of scholars after all.

I wonder, with the Picts, why do they need a separate color? Otherwise, if they need to, I'd definitely suggest the Scottish TCS color, even though there's not much continuity between the Picts and the Scots.

Well, nobody really knows do they? The assumption is that modern Scotland is primarily derived from Q-Celtic Dalriada, but there's no direct evidence for it. I've heard people argue the modern Scots are predominantly Pictish (well, those that aren't Germanic of course).

 

[Alex Richards]

As a brief interjection, the Isle of Angelsey was in the time before the conquest effectively ruled by a Druidic polity (taking the Isle's name of Mona) acting independently as a training ground for both Druids and, to a lesser extent, the children of the celtic Kings.

Hresvelgr: Perhaps we could do a bit of behind the scenes collabaration by PM to sort out the Mayans, so that we can present a rough version on the thread rather than a lot of discussion?

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Don't know. Might be, Cambridge has a lot of scholars after all.

Well, the "-briga" ending is something very typical of the various Hispano-Celtic areas. Once I'll get to the Iberian penninsula, because there's 'Brigas' all over...

Well, nobody really knows do they? The assumption is that modern Scotland is primarily derived from Q-Celtic Dalriada, but there's no direct evidence for it. I've heard people argue the modern Scots are predominantly Pictish (well, those that aren't Germanic of course).

Well, I'd easily buy the idea that the modern Scots are "Gaelicized" Picts (because it's pretty implausible the Picts were wiped out to begin with), but I find the (admittedly scarce) evidence that the Picts actually spoke a P-Celtic language reasonably compelling. Otherwise there wouldn'tbe tribal names like "Epidii" and place names like "Locopibia" and "Pinnata". Now, wether the Picts spoke Brythonic, or a separate P-Celtic language, that's a matter of speculation...

 

[Thande]

Well, I'd easily buy the idea that the modern Scots are "Gaelicized" Picts (because it's pretty implausible the Picts were wiped out to begin with), but I find the (admittedly scarce) evidence that the Picts actually spoke a P-Celtic language reasonably compelling. Otherwise there wouldn'tbe tribal names like "Epidii" and place names like "Locopibia" and "Pinnata". Now, wether the Picts spoke Brythonic, or a separate P-Celtic language, that's a matter of speculation...

Right, OK.

I suppose to answer that question we would need to know more about Strathclyde than we do.

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Hresvelgr: Perhaps we could do a bit of behind the scenes collabaration by PM to sort out the Mayans, so that we can present a rough version on the thread rather than a lot of discussion?

If the two would get to that, it would be pretty awesome. Informations on the New World before the arrival of the Europeans are definitely something that will vastly spice up this thread.

Right, OK.

I suppose to answer that question we would need to know more about Strathclyde than we do.

I'll get there eventually, but right now Roman Britain is first in the cue.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Hresvelgr: Perhaps we could do a bit of behind the scenes collabaration by PM to sort out the Mayans, so that we can present a rough version on the thread rather than a lot of discussion?

Sure, then. I've actually learned a few more over the past couple of days as well. And I thought I knew a lot 2 years ago...

 

[Thande]

I'll get there eventually, but right now Roman Britain is first in the cue.

Huzzah!

.....

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Part #10 - First Supplementary on Britain (Roman Britain)

In a similar fashion to the Roman provinces in Gaul, I have arranged towns located inside the territory of major tribes. Now, with the coastal features, I have modified things a bit to before. I found it rather difficult to assign many of these features (part of a reason is my less-than-adequate geographic knowledge of Britain - in particular river names ). I therefore ask you to fill these gaps as you know them.

Towns of the Belgae:
Aquae Calidae (probably Bath)
Iscalis (Charterhouse-on-Mendip)
Venta - Venta Belgorum (Winchester)

Towns of the Brigantes:
Calatum (Burrow, Lancashire - 54°10'22'' N, 2°35'43'' W)
Camelodunum** (Calderdale, West Yorkshire)
Caturactonium (Catterick, North Yorkshire)
Eboracum (York)
Epiacum (Alston, Cumbria)
Isurium - Isurum Brigantium (Aldborough)
Olicana (Ilkley, West Yorkshire)
Rigodunum (Castleshaw, Greater Manchester)
Vinovium (Binchester)

Towns of the Canti:
Daruernum - a corruption of Durovernum Cantiacorum (Canterbury)
Londinium (London)
Rutupie (???)

Towns of the Dumnoni:
Isca - Isca Dumnoniorum (Exeter)
Tamara (near modern Plymouth)
Voliba (???)
Uxella (located on the Axe river)

Other British towns:
Brannogenium of the Ordovices (Leintwardine, England)
Bullaeum of the Silures (???)
Camulodunum of the Trinovantes (Colchester)
Corinium of the Dobuni (Cirencester)
Caleva of the Atrebati (Silchester)
Deva of the Cornavi (Chester, Cheshire)
Dunium of the Durotriges (probably "Durnovaria", eg Dorchester)
Lindum of the Coritani (Lincoln)
Luentium of the Demetae - near Pumsaint, Wales
Maridunum or Moridunum ("Sea fort") of the Demetae - Carmathen, Wales
Mediolanium of the Ordovices (???)
Noeomagus of the Regni (Chichester)
Petuaria of the Parisii (Brough, Yorkshire)
Ratae of the Coritani - Ratae Coreitauvorum (Leicester)
Salinae of the Catuvellauni (Middlewich, East Cheshire)
Urolanium of the Catuvellauni - Verulamium (St. Albans)
Venta of the Iceni (Caistor St. Edmund, Norfolk)
Viroconium of the Cornavi (Wroxeter)

North Sea Coast;
Vedra river (Tyne?)
Dunum Bay
Gabrantuicorum Bay
Ocelus promontory
Abi river
Metaris estuary
Gariennus river
"A promontory" (possibly near Lowestoft, Suffolk)
Sidumanis river
Tamesa estuary (Thames)
Cantium Promontory (penninsula west from Canterbury)

Channel Coast:
Cenio river
Tamarus river (Tamar)
Iscas river (Exe)
Alaunus river
a "great harbour"
Trisantonis river (Arun)
a "new harbour"

Irish Sea Coast:
Moricambe Estuary
Setantorium harbour
Belisama estuary
Seteia estuary
"Promontory of the Caengani" - Llyn penninsula
Toesobis river
Stuccia river
Tuerobis river
Octapitarum promontory - Pembrokeshire penninsula
Tobius river
Ratostabius river
Sabrina estuary
Uxella estuary (Axe river)
Herculis promontory
Antivaestaeum or Bolerium promontory
Damnonium or Ocrium promontory (Lizard penninsula)

Other features:
Vectis Island - Isle of Wight

**thanks to Thande for pointing out the mistake here

 

[Thande]

Good work EQ. I'll have to see if I can think of any suggestions for the unknown ones. Re Aquae Calidae, does the name refer to baths/hot springs or just any body of water?

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Good work EQ. I'll have to see if I can think of any suggestions for the unknown ones. Re Aquae Calidae, does the name refer to baths/hot springs or just any body of water?

Thanks.

And that's a good question. The only other example I definitely know, "Aquae Grannae" - Aachen does definitely refer to hot springs, so yeah, it would be likely.

(note to self: add Aachen to Gallia Belgica )

 

[Thande]

Thanks.

And that's a good question. The only other example I definitely know, "Aquae Grannae" - Aachen does definitely refer to hot springs, so yeah, it would be likely.

(note to self: add Aachen to Gallia Belgica )

Well I was thinking of the Roman name for Bath, Aquae Sulis, which does (somewhat obviously) refer to hot springs.

Actually...given that Somerset is part of the area where the Belgae hung out in Britain, and the hot springs of Bath are (now, at least) the only ones in the British Isles, I suspect Aquae Calidae is just an earlier name for Aquae Sulis.

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Well I was thinking of the Roman name for Bath, Aquae Sulis, which does (somewhat obviously) refer to hot springs.

Actually...given that Somerset is part of the area where the Belgae hung out in Britain, and the hot springs of Bath are (now, at least) the only ones in the British Isles, I suspect Aquae Calidae is just an earlier name for Aquae Sulis.

Actually, you have a very good point. I re-checked that with Ptolemy's relative coordinates, I think that Bath is a very likely location.

 

[Thande]

Actually, you have a very good point. I re-checked that with Ptolemy's relative coordinates, I think that Bath is a very likely location.

I SOLVED A HISTORICAL CONUNDRUM! Now I can go around pretending to be Tony Robinson!

And you can pretend to be whoever his German equivalent is.

 

[arctic warrior]

Part #7 - First Supplementary on Germania Magna
Scandian Isles - the Danish Isles (ie, Zealand, Fyn, etc.)

Bit late on this but better late than never!

Scandian Isles - apparently Scania was considered an island in antiquity, did once see a reproduction of a map displaying it so; so those isles may apply to Scania as well.

Edit: found a copy of said map here big island (I. Major) is Scania or Silende (Sjaelland). At least I once saw this reproduction the I. Major named Scania.

 

[Alex Richards]

North Sea Coast;
Vedra river (Tyne?)
Dunum Bay-Wear Estuary?
Gabrantuicorum Bay-Tees Estuary?
Ocelus promontory-Flanborough Head?
Abi river-Hull?
Metaris estuary-Humber Estuary
Gariennus river-Trent?
"A promontory" (possibly near Lowestoft, Suffolk)
Sidumanis river-Stour?
Tamesa estuary (Thames)
Cantium Promontory (penninsula west from Canterbury)

Channel Coast:
Cenio river-Fal or Fowey. Probably the former
Tamarus river (Tamar)
Iscas river (Exe)
Alaunus river-Avon (Hampshire)
a "great harbour"-Poole Harbour or Southampton Harbour
Trisantonis river (Arun)
a "new harbour"-Possible Dover. It'll be the one built for the invasion.

Irish Sea Coast:
Moricambe Estuary-Morecambe Bay
Setantorium harbour-Fleetwood?
Belisama estuary-Ribble
Seteia estuary-Mersey
"Promontory of the Caengani" - Llyn penninsula
Toesobis river-Dyfi
Stuccia river-Ystwyth?
Tuerobis river-Teifi
Octapitarum promontory - Pembrokeshire penninsula
Tobius river-Taff?
Ratostabius river-Wye?
Sabrina estuary-Severn
Uxella estuary (Axe river)
Herculis promontory-Hartland Point?
Antivaestaeum or Bolerium promontory-Lands End?
Damnonium or Ocrium promontory (Lizard penninsula)

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Good work, Alex! I'd say 'keep it up' but I myself haven't finished the other areas I've been working on (in the loop currently are 'Pictish' Britain, the Alpine region, and another supplementary on Germania Magna - I hope I get at least one of those finished tonight ).