An Unexpected Prince

Chapter 27: The New Law

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Chapter 27: The New Law



May, 1691



Anne took a moment to gather her thoughts, then she looked at the gentlemen gathered around her. There was Lord Chancellor Lord George Jeffreys a man she respected greatly, the Attorney General of England and Wales Sir Thomas Powys another man she respected greatly, the Lord Advocate of Scotland George Mackenzie and then the Attorney General of Ireland Richard Nagle. They had all come to Whitehall to discuss the impending declaration that Jeffreys wanted her to sign into law, without putting it through Parliament. Anne had her concerns and she wanted them answered.

She held up the document which would if Jeffreys had his way put into law the creation of a Regiment of Police for the city of London, and lay the groundwork for police regiments across England and Wales, and Scotland and Ireland. Anne looked at the lords before her and said. “This document is perhaps the most crucial piece of legislation that this regency will ever have to discuss. I have examined it thoroughly, and have consulted with you all individually about it. I am still somewhat uncertain about having it passed without it going through Parliament for the proper scrutiny. However, I understand the reasoning. I do however wish to discuss the finer points of the matter.” She paused for breath and then continued. “Specifically the clauses which actually relate to the forming of the police regiment for London.”

Lord Jeffreys, the Lord Chancellor spoke then. “What specifically about them is giving you concern, Your Highness?”

“The clauses that state that they shall be able to enter into a person’s home without forewarning, to be able to search the property for whatever reason they deem sufficient. To me, that smacks a little too much of the Ship Money incident which so plagued my grandfather His Majesty King Charles.”

The Lord Chancellor looked as though he’d expected her to raise that concern and thus his response was calm. “I understand your concern, Your Highness. However, unlike with the Ship Money case, this search is only when there is a crime that has been committed that would require the police regiments to search through a person’s property, if it is pertinent to the case. What determines whether it is pertinent is set out in Articles 3,4 and 5 of the bill.”

Anne read through those articles briefly to remind herself and then asked. “And what is there to say that the captain in charge does not abuse them?”

“The fact that they are quite clearly stating that if there is a tie between the crime committed and a named individual, then they have the right. But the individual must be named first by two witnesses.” Lord Jeffreys replied.

Anne looked at the Attorney General for England and Wales Sir Thomas, and asked him. “Sir Thomas, you have spent much time examining such cases, you wrote the defining article on the Ship Money case, is what the Lord Chancellor telling us true and can there be no question of a challenge from Parliament?”

Sir Thomas was a man from the old school, who very rarely spoke without thinking in depth, the way he held himself now suggested that that was exactly what he was doing now. A moment passed and then another, and then he said. “I believe that Lord Jeffreys is correct, Your Highness. There cannot be grounds for a legal challenge on this matter because the Articles correctly and rightly determine when the regiments would be able to come into a person’s house and when they could not.”

“Is there anything else that could cause Parliament to cause chaos in this regard?” Anne asked. She had heard from the Earl of Shrewsbury that someone named Somers was gathering support for a legal challenge, whether or not he would be successful, she did not know, but she did not want to give him extra opportunities to be so.

“Nothing within the bill goes against the common law, Your Highness.” Sir Thomas responded.

Satisfied, Anne then turned to the Attorney General of Ireland. “Sir Richard, will there be any trouble getting this passed through the Irish Parliament?” She had spoken with Sir William Temple about Ireland, and the man had said that Ireland tended to follow England in step, and she wanted to know whether that still held true.

Richard Nagle, Attorney General of Ireland was not a knight of the realm, Anne knew, but she intended to make him one soon enough, hence she was preparing for such a discussion. “Ireland will follow England, and to the best of our abilities there is nothing objectionable with the law.”

Anne nodded her thanks, before turning to George Mackenzie, the Lord Advocate of Scotland George Mackenzie, a man her father had trusted before his death, and someone she had become fond of. “Mr Mackenzie?” She asked.

The man immediately responded. “In its current form, the bill is only applicable to England and Ireland, Your Highness. There are a few changes that would need to be made to ensure it sat well with Scots Law. However, I understand the changes would make it not sit well in England and Ireland, therefore I would recommend a few sentence changes and then leave the rest to me.”

“What sentences would need to be changed?” Anne asked intrigued. She would need to visit Scotland soon, perhaps when the King was old enough to travel, she would take him there.

Mackenzie looked at the document and then said. “Instead of saying things like ‘Here onward we shall insist on the right to search and find,’ I would change it in Scotland to ‘From now on we shall ensure the right to find the necessary tools to end crime are.’ It is a small change but it is significant. Especially with the campaign being waged by Lord Campbell in trying to bring the western coast of Scotland into line.”

Anne looked at Jeffreys who said. “I shall make the changes, Your Highness.”

“Good, I want those changes made before the order is finally confirmed.” Anne responded.

“But you shall confirm it?” Jeffreys asked.

“Yes, of course,” Anne replied. “I see no reason not to.”
 
I can see a means for it to be abused though, if an unscrupulous captain wanted to abuse his powers, all he has to do is get two 'witnesses' to say that something happened.

However this is a major step forward in creating a police force, and perhaps for it to one day become a 'civilian' institution with further evolution/reforms.
 

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I can see a means for it to be abused though, if an unscrupulous captain wanted to abuse his powers, all he has to do is get two 'witnesses' to say that something happened.

However this is a major step forward in creating a police force, and perhaps for it to one day become a 'civilian' institution with further evolution/reforms.
That is very very true. Though will parliament see it that way with Sunderland’s death still hanging over them
 
That is very very true. Though will parliament see it that way with Sunderland’s death still hanging over them

Oh I think it will pass in this climate, how it develops as time goes on will see if this 'British' Police Force survives.

The main challenge in Parliament (England AND Scotland) is that this is the biggest push to a 'United Kingdom' to date, and one without their prior input.
 

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Oh I think it will pass in this climate, how it develops as time goes on will see if this 'British' Police Force survives.

The main challenge in Parliament (England AND Scotland) is that this is the biggest push to a 'United Kingdom' to date, and one without their prior input.
Oh very true and it’s being signed by decree. Definitely going to cause some issues
 
How about a judge or a panel of judges sitting permanently to determine if there is enough of a case to issue a search warrant, with approriate clauses to possible compensation if nothing comes out of a search. This may even serve as a deterrent and reassurance with regards to abuses. Might need clauses as to an emergency though.
 

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How about a judge or a panel of judges sitting permanently to determine if there is enough of a case to issue a search warrant, with approriate clauses to possible compensation if nothing comes out of a search. This may even serve as a deterrent and reassurance with regards to abuses. Might need clauses as to an emergency though.
That could be quite good, though night it cause some tension between parliament and the judiciary?
 
Would
It be beyond reasonable to have Hohn George IV married to a Neuberg?
It would be perfectly reasonable marriage policy from John George III for his heir - as he needs to maintain Saxony status as the premier Protestant power.
P.S. We've already discussed either OTL Mrs. Sobieski or OTL Queen of Spain ending up in Dresden =:)
 

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It would be perfectly reasonable marriage policy from John George III for his heir - as he needs to maintain Saxony status as the premier Protestant power.
P.S. We've already discussed either OTL Mrs. Sobieski or OTL Queen of Spain ending up in Dresden =:)
Ah so we did, cheerS :)
 
How about a judge or a panel of judges sitting permanently to determine if there is enough of a case to issue a search warrant, with approriate clauses to possible compensation if nothing comes out of a search. This may even serve as a deterrent and reassurance with regards to abuses. Might need clauses as to an emergency though.
We don't even have panel judging for searches today!

A simple application to a single judge is required. Given the politicisation of judges in this period I'm not sure this is going to protect many subjects. The act codifying rights under Habeus Corpus was only passed in 1679 so the idea of enforceable rights of suspects is fairly new.

What you might have is a retrospective right of redress against unjustified investigation - although enforcing this and identifying the redress will be difficult.
 

VVD0D95

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We don't even have panel judging for searches today!

A simple application to a single judge is required. Given the politicisation of judges in this period I'm not sure this is going to protect many subjects. The act codifying rights under Habeus Corpus was only passed in 1679 so the idea of enforceable rights of suspects is fairly new.

What you might have is a retrospective right of redress against unjustified investigation - although enforcing this and identifying the redress will be difficult.
This is true, of course this could mean someone such as Somers who otl helped shape the glorious revolution settlement could
Come to prominence in a completely
Different way
 
Chapter 28: A Gambit Upon The Cross

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Chapter 28: A Gambit Upon The Cross



June, 1691


The work on Chatsworth House was coming to completion, the project which had started under his father was to be completed by the month’s end. William knew that there was more that needed to be done internally, but he had decided to invite the leading Whigs from Parliament to his home to discuss the latest bit of tyranny that had come from court. Gathered with him were, Charles Talbot, Earl of Shrewsbury, Charles Montagu, Earl of Manchester, John Somers MP and up and coming lawyer, and then Henry Sydney a commander in the King’s army.

William cleared his throat and then spoke. “The Police Regiment Law smacks of the sort of thing that King Charles I would do. The Regency council might claim it is because of the murder of the Earl of Sunderland and their failure to find who has killed him that has led to this, but realistically, I think it is because they want to control what is done and said. The Princess knows what our motives were before her father died, no doubt she is trying to protect herself.”

“Agreed.” Charles Montagu said. “The fact she named the Earl of Monmouth as Captain General for the Police Regiment for London, shows that she is trying to take some of the supporters for the original plan away from us. She is being quite clever about it.”

“I would not be so sure about that.” Shrewsbury replied. “Many of the lords are indeed scared of what happened to Sunderland. Indeed, the Earl of Bedford has increased the security around his manor on Parliament street, whilst the Marquess of Halifax has been charged with increasing patrols in the palace grounds. There is genuine fear there.”

William looked at Shrewsbury, he was a clever man, and someone who William knew was dangerous, which was why he asked. “You do not seriously believe their claims, do you?”

“I do not see why you do not.” Shrewsbury retorted. “Yes, they might well be using Sunderland’s death as an excuse, but it is a fact that the lords and the commons are terrified of something like that happening to them. Therefore, I would suggest we tread very carefully before doing anything else.”

William looked at Somers and asked him. “John, you are the lawyer here, what is the legal position of this act?”

John Somers had written a tract some years back stating that Parliament had always had the right to decide the succession, and William had taken him up as his mentee. “Well, my lords, the position of the Attorney General is that the law is needed within the frames of defence of the realm, something which the crown has sole control over, as per an agreement made between King Charles II and the Restoration Parliament. Furthermore, in the time of serious concern, such as now, the crown also has the power to issue decrees that guarantee the safety of Parliament.”

William sighed that was not what he wanted to hear. “So, you’re telling me, that we can’t challenge this?”

Jon Somers shook his head. “Not at all, my lord, on the contrary what I am suggesting that because this police regiment law was created as a consequence of the death of a lord, it is Parliament’s duty to be able to analyse the law and propose amendments as we see fit.”

William noted the use of the we in what Somers said, and so asked. “And how would you recommend we go about doing that?”

Here Somers did not immediately respond, instead he thought carefully about his response, and then said. “We could always file a legal challenge with the Court of the King’s Bench, that would then require it be taken to the Lords, and we could file a challenge in Ireland also, I know one of the clerks on the roster there. However, the best course for us to take would be to push for a discussion through a humble address.”

“We don’t have the numbers.” Shrewsbury said immediately. “The Lords are majority for the crown, and the Commons is mainly Tory.”

“So?” William asked, thinking quickly on his feet. “I have the reach to sway many of the MPs who would nominally side with the crown on these matters. There are those who feel disgruntled over the fact that the Regency Council has taken this above their heads.”

“And what would you say?” Shrewsbury demanded. “That we are trying to prevent the Crown from dealing with an issue that has the majority of Parliament terrified for itself?”

“No, that we are trying to ensure that Parliament is involved in sorting out its own protection.” William shot back, he did not understand why Shrewsbury was being so obstinate about this.

“It won’t work. I have met with half the MPs in the Commons, they are all in favour of the decree, and they aren’t even Tories. We won’t sway anyone.” Shrewsbury responded.

William looked at Shrewsbury and asked. “What are you not telling us?” He wanted to say ‘me’ but knew that would be too self-involved, and so he waited.

“Parliament is scared. They will accept this law because they know that it is for their protection. Scotland has already agreed to the law; Ireland will do what we do. Therefore, we must find another reason to undo this.” Shrewsbury said.

“By forcing the Regency Council to overstretch itself.” William said finally realising what Shrewsbury was getting at.

“Exactly.” Shrewsbury said.

“Overstretch themselves beyond the scope of the law and then watch Parliament change its mind.” Somers said.

“How though?” Charles Montagu, Earl of Manchester asked.

William spoke then. “We must find a way to get them to think they are under threat without revealing ourselves. The only way we can do that is to play on their insecurities.”

“The insecurities of the Princess or the councillors?” Manchester asked.

“Both. We must amplify the role the Princess had in the plan against her father.” William said. “John, you still have those correspondence?”

“I do yes, I would need to make sure there was nothing there that could damage us first.” John replied.

“Excellent, we shall need them released soon.” William said.

Henry Sydney who had said nothing for the entire conversation spoke then. “We will also need to be on the alert for any forced military action. I would not put it passed people such as Perth and Jeffreys to suggest using the army if things get heated.”

William nodded he had thought of that himself as well. “Then we shall be prepared.”

Shrewsbury spoke then, but his words were not cautionary. “I shall speak with some members of the press to see how willing they would be to receive these letters.”

“Excellent.” William said.
 
This might just be my bias showing through (I always had a soft spot for the house of orange) but I hope you could give William and Mary a son (she could be killed due to complications). This would work for a plot line as it would be an alternative King that the English could support. I know that at 32 she is a little old but it is still possible. This is a great timeline and I hope you keep it going!
 
This might just be my bias showing through (I always had a soft spot for the house of orange) but I hope you could give William and Mary a son (she could be killed due to complications). This would work for a plot line as it would be an alternative King that the English could support. I know that at 32 she is a little old but it is still possible. This is a great timeline and I hope you keep it going!
Mary and William having children need a much earlier POD than this... Mary likely became sterile when her first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage she had shorty after being married (is possible she had other 3 miscarriages in the next years but the latest was in early 1680 and all this supposed miscarriages were pretty early in the pregnancy so she was maybe still able to conceive but surely unable to carry a full pregnancy)
 
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VVD0D95

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This might just be my bias showing through (I always had a soft spot for the house of orange) but I hope you could give William and Mary a son (she could be killed due to complications). This would work for a plot line as it would be an alternative King that the English could support. I know that at 32 she is a little old but it is still possible. This is a great timeline and I hope you keep it going!
Cheers :) and unfortunately as Isabella says it’s highly likel Mary was rendered sterile and u able to have further kids after her first oregnanxy
 
Mary and William having children need a much earlier POD than this... Mary likely became sterile when her first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage she had shorty after being married (is possible she had other 3 miscarriages in the next years but the latest was in early 1680 and all this supposed miscarriages were pretty early in the pregnancy so she was maybe still able to conceive but surely unable to carry a full pregnancy)
Fair enough.
 
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