alternatehistory.com

So there is this man I've met in Indonesian forum kaskus.us. He's an Ottoman-phile, just like me and some other members of this forum. He seems to be quite Ottoman enthusiast, and that naturally attracted me to have some correspondences with him in a thread served for Ottoman-related discussion.

However, after some talks with him, I've got driven to confirm some things....

At a point, him and me arrived in the 1877-78 part of Ottoman history, the famous Russo-Ottoman War general AH.com public should have probably aware of. Related to it, he brought up some interesting points, and I'd like to confirm them here.

1) That Russo-Ottoman War of 1877-78 was not mano-a-mano Russia VS OE, but Russia+Romania+Serbia+Montenegro+Bulgaria VS Ottoman Empire. Seeing the number of troops of respective belligerents that he brought up, I suspect he got it from here

And that's also behind his point that the ratio of manpower strength between Ottoman Empire and Russia was 1 : 5

2) That Ottomans assumed that Russia would've attacked from Black Sea, instead doing direct land march into Ottoman Balkans.

Eventhough I know most of you don't understand Bahasa, I would quote his original message from there to here in order to provide authentic prove that the whole thing happened :

1. sederhana kok gan tinggal pke paint

2. mgkn ada benarnya apa yg ente katakan, memang war economy dipakai dalam awal sampai masa pertengahan pemerintahan Ottoman, yaitu pada tahun 1683 ketika kegagalan Pengepungan Wina yg kedua..ane blom baca buku itu gan :eek:

3. untuk angkatan darat Ottoman : memang pasukan Ottoman sebesar itu (200rb yg station di Balkan) dan persenjataannya lumayan baru terutama rifle buatan Inggris dan Amerika serta artileri buatan Jerman, namun yg perlu dicatat bahwa senjat2 tsb diimpor dan bukan hasil inovasi militer Ottoman sendiri..tapi harus kita analisis dulu keadaan di lapangan seperti apa..dari 200rb-an pasukan Ottoman di Balkan 100rb ditugasi untuk menjaga benteng dan kantong2 pertahanan serta sifatnya tidak mobile, maka hanya sisanya (yg 100rb-an) yg bisa mobile, kemudian memang terdapat bantuan sebanyak ± 80rb-an prajurit selama perang, tapi jumlah ini terlalu sedikit jika dibandingkan dgn Rusia dan konco2nya..
dewan militer Ottoman memakai rencana bertahan dikarenakan :
pertama, asumsi bahwa Rusia tidak akan menyerang lewat Balkan tapi lewat Laut Hitam yg notabene dijaga ketat oleh angkatan laut Ottoman. kedua, jumlah pasukan yg diperlukan Ottoman untuk melakukan ofensif terlalu sedikit (sekitar 100rb-an)
sekarang kita bandingkan dgn kekuatan koalisi antara Rusia dan negara2 Balkan : Rusia saja sanggup memobilisasi 700rb-an prajurit selama perang belum ditambah lagi dgn Rumania (60rb), Bulgaria (40rb), Serbia (80rb), Montenegro (25rb) sehingga total lebih dari 900rb prajurit yg mobile untuk ofensif :takuts

memang dilakukan reformasi militer sejak masa pemerintahan Sultan Selim III namun terganjal Janissari, setelah Janissari dibubarkan baru dilakukan reformasi militer yg cukup efektif namun sudah sangat jauh tertinggal dibanding negara2 Eropa lainnya... :cd

untuk angkatan laut Ottoman : memang secara jumlah angkatan laut Ottoman terbesar ketiga pada waktu itu, sebagai gambaran Ottoman memiliki 21 battleship dan 137 warship dgn berbagai varian, hanya kalah jumlah dari Inggris dan Perancis..namun, apalah artinya jika kekuatan sebanyak itu tidak bisa digunakan dikarenakan tidak ada biaya untuk menjalankannya, sehingga sebagian besar kapal2 tersebut hanya di"pajang" di Golden Horn selama 3 dekade hingga rusak dimakan waktu..

oio maksudnya central command itu sapa? nama menterinya sapa, ntar ane cek? apa signifikansinya? soalnya ane baru pertama kali denger hal tsb sebagai biang kekalahan Ottoman di Turki-Rusia 1877-1878 :)

4. memang sangat terlambat gan

5. Debate Club gan, forum sebelah :D

Ane mang bicara ttg konteks Perang Rusia vs Turki pada tahun 1877 – 1878 gan :)
Untuk gambaran saja
Perang Rusia-Turki tahun 1877 – 1878 : Turki VS Rusia + Rumania + Bulgaria + Serbia + Montenegro
Perang Balkan Pertama tahun 1912 – 1913 : Turki VS Bulgaria + Serbia + Yunani + Montenegro


namun juga jauh kalah jumlah hampir 5 : 1


Ottoman bertahan karena alasan yg ane ungkapkan di atas dan karena memang tidak mampu menyerang

Serangan amfibi ke Abkhazia kapan gan? Setau ane di front Caucasia tidak terjadi pertempuran di Abkhazia


Sejak jaman Sultan Abdul Aziz (memerintah 1861 – 1876, sebelum Perang Turki-Rusia 1877-1878) Ottoman sudah tidak mampu untuk membiayai angkatan lautnya walaupun dgn jumlah kapal yg sedemikian banyak

Bukankah Husseyin Avni Pasha terbunuh sebelum perang dimulai? Apa signifikansinya?
Koordinasi terpusat tetap ada dan dipegang oleh Ottoman High Command di Istanbul dgn komando di lapangan dipegang oleh Field Marshal Osman Nuri Pasha, dgn komandan militernya antara lain Mehmet Ali Pasha yg kemudian digantikan oleh Husnu Sulaiman Pasha di Front Balkan, sedangkan di Front Kaukasus dipimpin oleh Ahmed Muhtar Pasha...


Jujur mang Buku karya Lord Kinross, Stanford J Shaw dan Caroline Finkel mang susah didownload di inet
Namun coba baca buku lain, ane punya :
1. The Ottoman Empire and the World Around It karya Suraiya Faroqhi
2. Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913 karya Edward J. Erickson
3. A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East karya David Fromkin
4. The Ottoman Empire, 1700-1922 karya Prof. Donald Quataert
5. dll

berbicara ttg alternate history sebenarnya da beberapa hal yg ane mau sampaikan ttg beberapa pertanyaan alternatif
1. bagaimana jadinya jika Mustafa yg naik tahta dan bukan Selim II?
2. Bagaimana jadinya jika Baltaci Mehmet Pasha menghancurkan total dan bukan malah mengampuni pasukan Rusia yg dipimpin Tsar Peter the Great pada pertempuran Prut?
3. Bagaimana jadinya jika Bayrakdar Mustafa Pasha tidak terlambat menyelamatkan Sultan Selim III, yg pada waktu itu mulai memodernisasi militer Ottoman?
4. dll


Ini memang bener gan..Ottoman suda sangat terlambat..
Bahkan Tsar Nicholas I (1796 – 1855), jauh sebelum perang tahun 1877, menyatakan, “the Ottoman Empire was a sick man—a very sick man, a "man" who has fallen into a state of decrepitude, sick man ... gravely ill"

The page where the chat happened


He also doesn't know that Ottomans did some small amphibious assault to Abkhazia, and he also is oblivious of the significance of Husseyin Avni Pasha's role in Ottoman military back then.

He also brought some interesting information related to Ottoman economic nature. He claimed to have gotten it from Suraiya Faroqhi's "The Ottoman Empire and the World Around It"

2. untuk gambaran mengenai bagaimana ekonomi Ottoman selain dari buku yg ane sebutin di atas, ente jg bisa baca The Ottoman Empire and the World Around It karya Suraiya Faroqhi..
"The Ottoman Empire was an agrarian economy, labour scarce, land rich and capital poor. Majority of the population earned their living from small family holdings and this contributed to around 40 percent of taxes for the empire directly as well as indirectly through customs revenues on exports.Cultivator families drew their livelihoods from a complex set of different economic activities and not merely from growing crops. This included growing a variety of crops for their own consumption as well as rearing animals for their milk and wool. Some rural families manufactured goods for sale to others, for instance Balkan villagers travelled to Anatolia and Syria for months to sell their wool cloth. This pattern established for the 18th century had not significantly changed at the beginning of the 20th century"
(Professor Donald Quataert, History Department of Binghamton University.)
In these are the titles that he uses as his sources :

Jujur mang Buku karya Lord Kinross, Stanford J Shaw dan Caroline Finkel mang susah didownload di inet
Namun coba baca buku lain, ane punya :
1. The Ottoman Empire and the World Around It karya Suraiya Faroqhi
2. Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913 karya Edward J. Erickson
3. A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East karya David Fromkin
4. The Ottoman Empire, 1700-1922 karya Prof. Donald Quataert

5. dll
He, like me, has struggled in vain in searching for Stanford Shaw and Caroline Finkel's books on Ottoman History (And no, I have not forgiven myself for solely relying on certain AH.com members for Ottoman-data supply). Maybe that is the reason behind some infos he possesses on the Ottoman history......


The most tragic part of all, that he, as an Ottoman enthusiast, actually seems to believe that Ottoman Empire was "Sickman of Europe" by the definition of that term used as IOTL.... :(
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