An Orange Empire

Hmm... any real hope of a diplomatic solution that ends with Henry getting his dad's titles?

Very much so. The easiest would be Willem III being all in favour. If he has time to install key people, he'll probably pull it off (given how well he managed to play the Dutch political system to get power, he'll probably be able to do it for his son).

The issue is, of course, that it'll be a constant push-and-pull, and if the monarch focuses on England (which does seem more likely, although I guess he might choose to rule from the Hague instead it seems the less likely option) he, or his heir or heir's heir, will lose the experience of how to play the Dutch system, leading to his ouster or simply keeping the titles without actually governing.
 

Asami

Banned
So a theoretical Henry IX would be able to retain his father's positions, but it's likely to slip further out of their orbit the longer they remain in London... Now, question is -- what could be done to bring the Netherlands into a potential "Act of Union" that bonds England and Scotland together?

Barring tearing the Republic down -- maybe if the Netherlands falls to an alternate family within the Orange cadet branches or out of their hands entirely, and a Napoleonic War-esque situation happens where the Netherlands gets subsumed, then France loses and the political climate of Europe is reshaped -- could the Netherlands pass under a PU with Britain in a situation esque to how Hanover was in a personal union with Britain? (at least until Vicky became Queen)

And even then, could the Netherlands really be made *part* of the UK, or would it just stay permanently separate?

I'm starting to get an idea on what I could do for this TL. It'll take some rewriting and further research, but I'm sure I'll figure out what to do.
 
So a theoretical Henry IX would be able to retain his father's positions, but it's likely to slip further out of their orbit the longer they remain in London... Now, question is -- what could be done to bring the Netherlands into a potential "Act of Union" that bonds England and Scotland together?

Barring tearing the Republic down -- maybe if the Netherlands falls to an alternate family within the Orange cadet branches or out of their hands entirely, and a Napoleonic War-esque situation happens where the Netherlands gets subsumed, then France loses and the political climate of Europe is reshaped -- could the Netherlands pass under a PU with Britain in a situation esque to how Hanover was in a personal union with Britain? (at least until Vicky became Queen)

And even then, could the Netherlands really be made *part* of the UK, or would it just stay permanently separate?

I'm starting to get an idea on what I could do for this TL. It'll take some rewriting and further research, but I'm sure I'll figure out what to do.
You don't need a personal union of crowns to weaken the Netherlands. Dutch merchants all flocked to London during Williamite era in OTL.
 
I don't really see a good Dutch-English union ever.

That is, the two were clearly distinct countries. and had been since forever. Countries that interacted, to be sure (first mostly Flandres-England, but Holland-England was also not so new by the 1670's), but the Netherlands had the whole HRE and then Burgundian-Habsburg unification while England had been a 'country' since the year 1000 or so.

Now, that may not be an absolute barrier, as Scotland-England showed. But... I don't see it working, not with continental opposition easily able to back Dutch dissent and a lot of competition between Dutch and English merchants.

IF it works, the union would absolutely dominate trade, though.
 
If you want a true union, like the Anglo-Scottish union, that is probably impossible, at least with a Willem III POD (I think you have to go back to Elisabeth I for it). If you want a continued personal union, I believe that is possible. You do need some very competent kings for it to happen. You need a king that is willing to let the Netherlands rule itself, while still giving it what the Netherlands wants (like trade rights, colonies, safety, more territory, acknowledgement, etc.), while not demanding things the Dutch don't want to give (like forcing the Dutch to get involved in wars they don't want to participate in, or demand the Dutch to pay for internal English stuff). Also those kings (you need more than one) need to balance out English internal politics with Dutch demands. Basicly English and Dutch interests are not the same and can even be contrary. So if the Anglo-Dutch go to war against (lets say) Spain, the English can not simply keep all the colonies they knicked from Spain, while the Netherlands gains almost nothing. The king of England (and stadholder of the Netherlands) must resist English pressure to only care for English interests and must give the Dutch their reward too. The problem is that the English won't like it. So you need a line of very competent kings, until the personal union between both countries is something that is accepted as something natural and something an incompetent king won't be able to ruin.

It is a hard thing to do, but possible. In my opinion the most likely outcome will be a split after one or two generations (although it is possible that the English king might remain stadholder of one or two provinces).
 

Asami

Banned
Hey guys! Question again -- what would the chances be of the Netherlands, England, Scotland and Ireland being in one union if Elizabeth I accepted the offer of the Dutch to become their sovereign? I know she was afraid because of possible meddling by European monarchs in her affairs, but -- is it possible to have her become Queen of the Netherlands and have the union survive?
 
Not as "improved" but they will be offered a third opinion - since the son of Willem III won't be a guaranteed ruler (Stadtholder is an office, not a title), England won't get in any messy personal unions, and James II can be de jure deposed in favor of his grandson, claim of his mother Mary transferred to her child. Sort of Philip V of Spain situation, just with Brits and Dutch. Nobody wanted foreign ruler, nobody wanted Papist (in OTL foreigner was declared lesser of two evils), but when there's a compromise candidate who's a boy of 12 and is young enough to learn proper "English ways" people will root for him and Willem III may not even get crowned period. The precedent of Queen Regnant in England is fresh enough, both Elisabeth and Mary I had no direct male heirs apparent, while Mary has one, and her claims can be seamlessly transferred to her son (second in line after her if James III is declared illegitimate).

first of all william was not a total stranger, he was 3rd in line of the stuart succession directly after his wife.
second, you really make it sound like the british have so much to choose.
the so called glorious revolution actually was the gloriously successful Dutch invasion of britain.
parliament did not want to appoint William as co-ruler, but he forced them to do so. As long Mary is alive it is not practical to invited her son due to the place in succession.
furthermore if Williams son is invited, expect him to use it as a pretext to do what he did in OTL and consequently still force parliament to install him and Mary as co-rulers.
 
Hey guys! Question again -- what would the chances be of the Netherlands, England, Scotland and Ireland being in one union if Elizabeth I accepted the offer of the Dutch to become their sovereign? I know she was afraid because of possible meddling by European monarchs in her affairs, but -- is it possible to have her become Queen of the Netherlands and have the union survive?
Small, but that is mainly based on the fact that the help the English gave OTL was less than helpfull. The English under Dudley screwed up so much that the country actualy united because they wanted to get rid of the buffoon. If Elizabeth would actualy become queen of the Netherlands she must realy do a lot better.
 

Asami

Banned
Small, but that is mainly based on the fact that the help the English gave OTL was less than helpfull. The English under Dudley screwed up so much that the country actualy united because they wanted to get rid of the buffoon. If Elizabeth would actualy become queen of the Netherlands she must realy do a lot better.

So if Elizabeth is competent in supporting the Netherlands, it could strengthen the Union?
 
So if Elizabeth is competent in supporting the Netherlands, it could strengthen the Union?

It's not just competence, she really can't afford a hostile Spanish fleet in Antwerpen.

Iotl she tried to walk a fine line between not annoying Spain too much but also helping the Beggars where possible. She didn't want Spain weakened too much as that would allow the French to move into the Southern Netherlands. Which is no good to England or the rest of the Netherlands.

It also didn't help that the Spanish refused to make peace.

Not until 1648 did they finally agree to recognise the independence of the Northern Netherlands...

So just saying it was Elizabeth ignores her situation entirely.
 
It's not saying it's just Elizabeth's competence, but IOTL England did too few to be of any real help for the Netherlands in the conflict.
If England wants the union, they need to step up. I think IOTL they were not opposed to the former, but weren't willing (for whatever reason) to do the latter.
 
It's not saying it's just Elizabeth's competence, but IOTL England did too few to be of any real help for the Netherlands in the conflict.
If England wants the union, they need to step up. I think IOTL they were not opposed to the former, but weren't willing (for whatever reason) to do the latter.

Because they had the Spanish sending Armadas and helping catholic rebels in Ireland. If you make the Spanish get into war with France somehow then it frees up England to do more. Elizabeth can't risk fighting Spain too directly as it either weakens her or Spain which strengthens France.

Perhaps with Spain at war with France she can leverage the Spanish to recognise her as the ruler of the Northern Netherlands. She may even attempt to get the Southern areas too, but a land border with France has never really worked for England. Perhaps in payment she joins the war on Spain's side or something.

Maybe unlikely, but this way the status quo is kept, just about, so Spain and France are not greater threats, and Spain may even be glad to be rid of the rebels and less hostile.
 

Asami

Banned
Because they had the Spanish sending Armadas and helping catholic rebels in Ireland. If you make the Spanish get into war with France somehow then it frees up England to do more. Elizabeth can't risk fighting Spain too directly as it either weakens her or Spain which strengthens France.

Perhaps with Spain at war with France she can leverage the Spanish to recognise her as the ruler of the Northern Netherlands. She may even attempt to get the Southern areas too, but a land border with France has never really worked for England. Perhaps in payment she joins the war on Spain's side or something.

Maybe unlikely, but this way the status quo is kept, just about, so Spain and France are not greater threats, and Spain may even be glad to be rid of the rebels and less hostile.

Maybe some dynastic dispute between France and Spain causes a war between them, allowing Elizabeth to do some power-playing?
 
Maybe some dynastic dispute between France and Spain causes a war between them, allowing Elizabeth to do some power-playing?

Maybe, but given how obstinate the Spanish were OTL about Dutch Independence then they would have to really need their troops elsewhere and English support.

So it could work but you'd need a more reasonable Spanish monarch or a serious enough situation to have the current king accept the idea.

Could be fun though, better Anglo-Dutch relations are never a bad thing. There's another thread at the moment you could look at; it's not exactly this but similar.

www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=333698&page=1
 
@ Legend-in-Exile: you've listed a lot of reasons; but my point remains, that England will need to be of more help than IOTL, if they want a lasting union. IMHO if that doesn't change, then any union will end prematurely or be short lived.
 
@ Legend-in-Exile: you've listed a lot of reasons; but my point remains, that England will need to be of more help than IOTL, if they want a lasting union. IMHO if that doesn't change, then any union will end prematurely or be short lived.

You are right, England will have to show that it wants the Netherlands and can protect them.

That was why I suggested that Elizabeth herself arrange the peace. Once that is done, she will be seen in a very favourable light.

The main problem with any Anglo-Dutch union is the relatively small army of England, and the lack of defensibility of the Netherlands. England would have to raise a good sized army just to hold the Netherlands. They are usually focussed more on the sea. It would be expensive to supply an army outside of the British isles, but iotl the English did send some forces ( as you pointed out though, they were hardly the best) so sending a smallish force to act as a deterrant to Greedy neighbours may be the best idea, along with helping equip/train a standing Dutch army.

Long term investments in defenses would likely show the Dutch that the English were serious about making the union work
 

Asami

Banned
Mistakes

1547

The death of King Henry VIII was a somber affair for England. The man had, in a matter of his reign, swept aside the old order and inaugurated a new one. He had been a bloody tyrant, soaking in the heads of his wives deceased, or a heretic, breaking with Rome and following Luther and Calvin in the belief of a new church.

But for his children, an even odder fate awaited. Edward, his only son, was nine years old, and unfit to reign as of yet -- but he would become the indeed, King of England. Mary and Elizabeth both, cast aside by Henry due to their sex, were left out to dry. Both girls were declared illegitimate by him, and removed from the line of succession. Elizabeth was not happy at this arrangement, but respected it due to her brother's rightful claims to the throne in front of her -- Mary, however, was unable to comment on the situation, being consistently incapacitated by bouts of illness, which took her life away in early 1548. The double death, and her illegitimacy, lead to a complicated set of affairs for Elizabeth.

In 1548, at the advice of the court, Elizabeth was sent to the Spanish Netherlands for private tutoring. Being educated by the House of Orange in Breda during this period, where she met William, the current Prince of Orange. The two became very close during this period. William and Elizabeth decided to formally marry each other in 1550. Elizabeth decided that the marriage could sustain itself at distance, and she returned across the channel to England. Her brother's attitude had softened, and she was granted generous estates to live on during this period, and was expected to remain as such, or return to the Netherlands to her husband.

In 1553, Edward died, leaving behind an England reeling from an expensive war in Scotland, the further reduction of English power in France, with the French beginning to rapidly focus in on Calais. Edward, upon his death, willed the Kingdom to his cousin, Lady Jane Grey. This move proved horrendously unpopular, as soon afterwards, popular discontent against the move from both nobles and peasants alike, lead to Elizabeth's rise as the Queen of England.

Her rise in status had been a bit of a shock to William of Nassau, who had known that his wife was illegitimized by her father, but now reigned with the full consent of the ruling body. It was in 1554 that Elizabeth announced she had fallen pregnant after a visit to England by William.

Some time later, England was blessed with twins. Henry and Mary of Nassau were born, named after her father and her sister, both of whom, despite the rough relationship, she respected dearly. The birth of these children further strengthened her right of rule to many, and Elizabeth began the process of focusing the English monarchy's time and effort into religious consolidation, and diplomatic overtures towards other states.

Elizabeth defended her father's Anglican creation against Catholic objection, and made overtures to several courts, attempting to find strong allies of typically brusque nature toward England. Recent diplomatic disputes between France and Spain over the Southern Netherlands and political power balancing had given Elizabeth a much needed distraction, which she hoped to capitalize on to further consolidate power to ensure England's long-term stability.

In 1557, a year after the Seventeen Provinces passed into Spanish hands through the abdication of the Holy Roman Emperor, it seemed as if war was ready to stampede through Europe as France began to focus on the possibility of taking Antwerp by force.

-----------

It's a bit of a concept, really rough, needs LOTS of work to be a good, complete product, but I'm just wondering how much more realistic this is -- a major thing is that, with Liz being sent away to the Netherlands, she doesn't have that horrific experience with the people she was living with after the death of her father. Also the premature death of Mary gets rid of the whole Marian mass protestant murders... so I'm wondering what kind of things Elizabeth can do during a rather serious war in Europe (France + Poland? vs. Austria and Spain) -- and being married to William of Orange (Het Wilhelmus); and how that would effect the Dutch Revolt later on...

Any thoughts on this?
 
Elizabeth wouldn't go out of England, point. She's third in line for the throne at Henry's death, bumping up to second with Mary's in '48. That said, Willem is not even a minor figure on the European chessboard (AFAIK) yet, just a minor German princeling who by luck of the draw has succeeded his childless maternal cousin to his estates in the Netherlands/Burgundy/Arelat.

Also, Elizabeth's already been set against the idea of marriage even before her father's death - what he did to her mother, what she saw done to Anne of Cleves and to Katherine Howard. What the Seymours did was just the icing on the cake.

But here's a list of potential foreign husbands for Lizzy that were under consideration from birth to 1547, though. I think the last one is hilarious:

1534 Charles, Comte d’Angoulême 1536, Duke of Orléans et de Châtellerault, Duke of Bourbon (1522-1545) (third son of Francois I)
1538 Archduke Ferdinand of Austria
c1542 A Prince of Portugal (probably Joao, Prince of Portugal)

1543 James Hamilton, Son of James Hamilton, 2° Earl of Arran
1544 Prince Felipe of Spain (Felipe II)
 
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