An Israel-esque Romani Nation?

Peace in middle east by proxy of Romani? All that were missing were the Romani as intimidator between Zionists and Arabs? Now that’s a brighter TL I would like to see.

But yes the idea is to change the Zionist mindset whit a different played out holocaust making the Romani people perceived as brothers/sisters of misfortune and someone’s to care about and trust.

I've been toying time ago with the idea of Chaim Arlosoroff surviving his assination and subsequently guiding the yishuv on a less exclusivist path, smoothing things during the Arab Revolt if not averting it.
This can be a PoD.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
First of all: be careful with the term Gypsy.
I don't know about the English speaking world, but using the German word for Gypsy (Zigeuner) for Roma is about as un-pc as the word nigger is.

I hope this came out right as an advise, without calling anybody a racist.


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On the orriginal topic, I don't think it is likely.
And now I must admid that my knowledge is really limited, and I am too afraid to accidently use clichèes to go on...
 

Incognito

Banned
Okay no one seems to think of the obvious. Whit a bit more hatred against the Romani they could easily have ended up in greater numbers in the concentration camps. Whit greater numbers of both Jews and Romani having gone through the same experience, sometimes together, there is unbreakable bond created.
How? The Romani were already targeted by Nazis for extermination along with Jews OTL.
 
How? The Romani were already targeted by Nazis for extermination along with Jews OTL.

As my understanding they came as a solid number two or so in the priority order of horribleness done to people. As the majority of the Romani population were outside of the greater Germany, or their directly occupied areas, it were firmly put upon these countries to deal whit it first until the Jews were “relocated east”. This differs from the Jews that were demanded extradited from both occupied, axis-allied and neutral countries. Not saying the Romani were not hated but that the priority were on exterminating the Jews IOTL. But this is not necessary the only “final solution” as Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria might mix in more Romani whit their deportations of Jews in a slightly different ATL (or rather Germany is accepting this to happen).

In IOTL the Roma of Germany were detained in “Zigeunerlager” before the war and were first thought to be deported whit the Jews to the ghettos but some internal NSDAP squabble stopped this plan. “Deportations” resumed in late 1942 but some 5 000 - 15 000 Roma were exempted (out of about 30 000) due to the classification system. Several classification of Roma were used and three were exempted from deportation, the pure blooded “Gypsie”, the totally integrated into German society and those who had family members serving in the military. This did not stop authorities to take Roma soldiers directly out of the eastern frontline and send them to concentration camps. The Roma were kept separate from the Jews in camps like Auschwitz and were more often used in forced work details than sent to extermination. This unfortunately included being subjugated more to the Nazi medical experiments in bacteriological warfare too.

A good example of how different the treatment of Jews and Roma where is the reaction to when the SS decided to begin exterminate all Roma in may 1944. The Roma armed themselves whit iron pipes etc and forced the SS soldiers to rethink. They relocate the stronger to work camps leaving the weaker ill, children and elderly to the gas chambers of Birkenau. The German race biology viewed the “pure blooded” Roma has harmless but the “mixed blood” Roma as utterly dangerous. This were completely opposite of the view of the Jews. They preferred to leave the treatment of Roma population to local authorities of both occupation zones and allied countries.

Its estimated that about ¼ of the Roma population of Europe were exterminated during the War. In many places in eastern Europe and Soviet Union the harassment and bad treatment continued after the War and the Western powers decided 1948 that the actions taken against the Roma were lawful actions against criminals. It took until 1979 for the West Germany to acknowledge that the treatment of the Roma during the War were a crime. Estimations gives that as few as 700 000 Roma survived WW2 in Europe.

So in many ways their faith during the war were the same as the Jews but in other ways it were completely different. The biggest difference is how they were treated after the war.
 
To be honest, I'd say the main barriers to Romany Zionism are education and money.

If you can identify an articulate, educated, charismatic group of Romanies sometime in the C19th who would be willing to spearhead such a movement, you'd maybe have something to work with. However, I genuinely can't think of any - and I'm guessing that university educated Romanies in the C19th were few and far between, and more likely to downplay their Romany identity than fight on its behalf.

European Jews, by comparison, were generally well educated, articulate and often had access to the sort of capital which made political lobbying feasible. They also have a unifying religion, and a coherent national story which holds true across borders.

It's two very, very different cultures you'd be dealing with. National consciousness and the sort of motivations that gave rise to Zionism only really work in an educated context. Romanies simply don't have that context to refer to in the C19th and unless you create that, you can't have a Romany homeland.

Supposing, however, that such an educated, actively nationalist Romany middle class did exist, probably somewhere in Austria-Hungary: you then have to get them to agree that a homeland is the way to go. Many will be assimilationists; many will simply favour concentrating in certain districts of countries like Romania which already have substantial populations of Romanies.

If they can amass the wealth necessary to start lobbying governments, however, their emigrationist message would be well received in countries where gypsies have traditionally been identified as a problem population. In much the same way as the Liberians were 'helped' to emigrate by the states who hosted them, Europe's Romanies could find themselves pushed as much as they are pulled. Often, the pushing won't be pleasant. I could see the Austrians, Romanians, Serbs and Hungarians willing to foot the bill to transport their Roma populations, forcibly if needbe.

The next question is 'where'. I could see educated Romanies making an Indian play on the basis of their attested ancestry. While the British likely wouldn't be keen on the idea, they'd be functionally unable to stop a Romany migration funded by other states in Europe looking gleefuly to solve their 'gypsy problems'. India is massive, the Suez Canal will revolutionise transportation, and British government in many areas of the subcontinent is slack.

By 1900, a small, but significant population of Romanies would have already made the journey. They would remain a highly distinctive population wherever they settled, laying the foundations for future additions. Whether they could fit in with the indigenous population is open to debate - in all likelihood, they would encounter antagonism from castes holding similar artisan roles. However, given their nomadic traditions, it's unlikely they would remain in one, concentrated area.

Moreover, emigration to India would remain a niche interest, and most Romanies would continue to live in Europe. Interest in India would only really take off if persecution began on a Nazi-like scale in Europe, at which point India might seem like a more attractive option. Then - and only then - might you start seeing the numbers leaving necessary to build a real, albeit non-sovereign, 'Romany Nation' in India.
 
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