An Islamic *Russian state?

Interest or not, it may of happened. And Novgorod was the cradle of Russian culture after the Mongol invasions. If Novgorod fell, then Russia today would be rather different.

It would certainly be different, but I am not sure it would be gone per se.

Zalesye was a lot more populous than Smolensk and Novgorod lands, even at the worst era of Mongol raids and internecine warfare. Vladimir lands are going to stay important.

Also, the Mongols did not convert en masse until about a hundred years after the conquest. You'd have to change a lot of things pretty early, basically.
 
Doing a bit of reading about the Volga Bulgars got me thinking.

A lot of Russia (or the former USSR, I suppose), was once ruled by Muslim states. the Volga Bulgars, the Golden Horde and its successor states, etc.

How could we have an Islamic state (bonus points if it does not arise because the Rus convert) dominating the region instead?

You could - provided that, at least early on:

1. Trade links south are not compromised
2. Areas around the center of power stay weaker than the center of power itself.

Bulgar lived on the Volga trade (and agriculture, which meant they often traded in food). It was populous but not very expansionist for all that. It mostly gathered tribute from the Finno-Ugric cultures around it.

When the Russians came right up against the borders and proved more organised than the Volga Finns, it was effectively contained right up until the Mongols ended it.

So you need a Caliphate-boost to boost Bulgar, and you need to keep the Rus from forming the way it did.

Another relatively interesting POD is most of the Pechenegs undergoing a nominal conversion ca. 1020-1040s (didn't last, plus the Pechenegs themselves were soon defeated). This is according to Byzantine sources with some archaeological backing.

While I think they were a spent force by the time they converted, they could certainly be an important multiplier if a new Muslim-Steppe Seminomad ethnicity were to compositely form in the late 11th c.

There were definitely muslims among the Qangly Kipchaks. Shift around the horde migrations, absorb the Pechenegs, and we can have a Muslim presence pre-Golden Horde.

Finally - you can simply shift the Oghuz turks north over the Caucasus onto the Russian steppe. Game-changer in many ways.
 
That might held Russia a little longer under Islamic control.
But that would not make Russia Muslim.

Then couple it with a later costly war that gets billed in the West as a crusade and results in the forced conversion of most Christian subjects of the state following the stalemated but difficult war.

Actually if you avoid Timurs war with the Golden horde, they could very well prosper and conquer the Russ states.

Fair point. How would you do it?
 

whitecrow

Banned
I do not know where you take your figures from.
I am speaking about what I see with my own eyes. The 'Russian non-Muslims' have 1 kid per family (average of course). The 'Russian Muslims' have 2,5 kids per family.
And the Muslims have stronger sense of unity and belonging. As opposed to Russian non-Muslims.
I am not saying that majority of Russian population will be Muslim.
I am saying that the strongest most influential (maybe ruling) religion in this country will be Islam.
You could say the same thing about Gypsies (on average more kids per family AFAIK, great sense of "unity"/"togetherness"). And yet I am yet to meet a single person who believes Gypsies will become a dominant or major group in any country.
 
Fair point. How would you do it?

Have Toktamysh not piss Timur off (I think it was about the Caucasus), before then Timur even helped him in sacking Muscovy. A Golden Horde with Timurs support has amazing potential. Let the speculation begin.
 
Have Toktamysh not piss Timur off (I think it was about the Caucasus), before then Timur even helped him in sacking Muscovy. A Golden Horde with Timurs support has amazing potential. Let the speculation begin.

Potential for what? Even if Timur isn't made an enemy by Toktamysh, Timur isn't exactly interested in helping someone else become (more) powerful.
 
Potential for what? Even if Timur isn't made an enemy by Toktamysh, Timur isn't exactly interested in helping someone else become (more) powerful.

Potential to make Russia Islamic. They can easily become allies, as they were before their war.
 
Potential to make Russia Islamic. They can easily become allies, as they were before their war.

The first question is what does Toky as Timur's ally do? If Timur wants him fight alongside him, that may or may not be good for the Horde, but it would be attention away from Russia.

Better than OTL, sure, but OTL is probably the worst case scenario here.

And how will Toky handle Timur's barbarism (for want of a better word for it)?

This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Mosque being burnt, that is. Timur sacking Damascus in general is one thing, but that . . .

I can see that sparking serious hostility between Toky and Timur.
 
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