An Islamic Russia

Old Airman

Banned
Seriously, Russian culture would develop very differently - instead the main influences being being Greek and Church Slavic, they would be Arabic, Persian, and Turkic. As Russia didn't have an own literary language at that time, this place would be taken by Arabic and / or Persian, leading to a much wider separation between the literate elites (clergy) and the non-literate (Church Slavic and Old Russian were very similar, which is not true with regards to main Islamic literary languages at the time).
I'd say that literary Russian would still develop, but later and slower than OTL. However, once developed, it could progress faster than OTL (the very closeness of Church Slavonic to Russian vernacular delayed development of Russian literary language, there was no need to, educated person could read and write Church Slavonic by the time he could read and write at all).
Russia may become a target of the Crusades.
Yes it might. Not that I believe in success of those crusades too much. Rus is too far and too powerful. But some outlying areas like Halych might fall.
3) An Islamic Novgorod would be less open to the West and would play less of a special role; it would be just one of the Russian territories not directly ruled by the Volga Khanate.
I don't believe in Islamic Novgorod. Agricultural civilization without pork can't compete in this climate. Islam would naturally stop South of Ryazan-Nizhni Novgorod line. Novgorod would likely adopt Roman Christianity from it's Baltic trade partners between A.D. 900 and 1000.
4) The Lithuanian expansion of the 13th/14th century would probably run into resistance earlier. With the stronger polarisation between Russia and its Western neighbours, the Lithuanian elite would have to choose early on between Islam and Catholicism.
This whole Lithuania thing becomes extremely interesting ITTL. IOTL it wasn't so much "expansion" as setting up patronage of Lithuanian Rurikids over Western Rus principalities, which were looking for a new overlord once Kiev fell. I don't believe in massive islamization of territory of OTL Belarus, climate doesn't approve (and yes, I know about Belarussian Tartars and Karaims, but it is a very special case). So, at moment of Vladimir's conversion to Islam you get a Slavic territory under his influence which can't be Islamized. Methink, Polotsk would assume overlordship over the territory, likely under local branch of Rurikids (IOTL Polotsk prince is considered by many researchers as "last Russian pagan prince", although he ruled a century after official conversion). This "duchy" would, most likely, just ignore fall of "muhammedan" Kiev. It's relationships with Lithuanian "princes of swamps and forests" should be considered separately, but my monies are on "Great Ruthenian duchy" (capital - Polotsk, converted into Catholicism around AD 1100), which lords over Lithuanian pagans and later enters into alliance with Poland (similar to GDL IOTL).
5) If we get a united Islamic Russia, it may become an ally of the Ottomans, at least until their borders meet and they become rivals.
I would bet on Iran rather than Ottomans. IOTL Russia didn't have problems with Iran until at least 1800, but Ottomans and Russians were competing for Ukraine and (later) Northern Caucasus. And, as Iranian-Ottoman wars prove, religion doesn't prevent long and bitter wars if both states are looking for control of the same territory.
Actually, the easy way to get around the alcohol ban would be to say that Mohammed only forbade wine, and not any other type of alcohol.
Northern Russian muslims (Tatars, Bashkirs) do drink vodka, but I'm not sure it isn't the late influence of surrounding Russian civilization.
There is no way that Vladimir would have converted to Islam.
Yes, all Slavic and Nordic conversions were quite pragmatic. They converted into faith of your mightiest neighbour and main trading partner to make trade easier and to prevent Holy Wars. Poles and Norse were trading with Germanies - they became Catholic. Rus was trading with Constantinople - behold Orthodox Rus. So, in order to convert Rus into Islam, you need to eliminate Khazars somehow and give Rus control of Volga. Iran would become Rus's main trade partner and it would make sense for southern Rus rulers to adopt Islam.
 
An enduring Golden Horde TL would probably need to keep the Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Bishop close at hand, using them as a tool to maintain the loyalty of the native Rus. It would perhaps start out with a large Muslim urban populace in cities such as Kazan and Sarai-Batu being dependent on the agricultural produce of the Christian Slavs. They certainly don't want any one Russian principality getting too big for its boots and rallying against them. Hostages might be taken from the Rurikid families, and perhaps indoctrinated under the auspices of the Kipchaq Khan, as the OTL Ottomans sometimes did with their vassals in the Balkans, such as Skanderbeg and Radu cel Frumos.
 
I think it would stop the European colonial adventures.
I doubt it, assuming no butterflies, just because there was a large blob on the map to the east didnt stop colonization in rl, why would an Islamic blob (which they had in otl also, so 2nd blob) be different? Assuming no butterflies of course.
 
I'd say that literary Russian would still develop, but later and slower than OTL. However, once developed, it could progress faster than OTL (the very closeness of Church Slavonic to Russian vernacular delayed development of Russian literary language, there was no need to, educated person could read and write Church Slavonic by the time he could read and write at all).

I think Ottoman Turkish would be a possible parallel - a Turkish-based (here: Russian-based) literary language so full of Persian (and Arabic) loanwords and grammatical constructions that non-literate Turks (here: Russians) wouldn't understand it when it's read to them. Then, at some point in the modern age, a radical language reform that throws out many of these elements.

Yes it might. Not that I believe in success of those crusades too much. Rus is too far and too powerful. But some outlying areas like Halych might fall.
The question is whether the Russian principalities would start splitting up as they do IOTL (and you have lots of splits in the Islamic world at that time, too). If yes, the crusaders might go further, only for their states to be wiped out when the Mongols come knocking.

I don't believe in Islamic Novgorod. Agricultural civilization without pork can't compete in this climate. Islam would naturally stop South of Ryazan-Nizhni Novgorod line. Novgorod would likely adopt Roman Christianity from it's Baltic trade partners between A.D. 900 and 1000.

Again, if the Rusian principalities split, there wouldn't be a central power to stop Novgorod from Christanisation. In that case, it would be even more independent from "Russia" than IOTL, becoming a separate nation, more oriented towards Scandinavia. It probably still would colonise the Russian North, and there may be competition between Novgorod and Islamic Russia over Siberia.

It's relationships with Lithuanian "princes of swamps and forests" should be considered separately, but my monies are on "Great Ruthenian duchy" (capital - Polotsk, converted into Catholicism around AD 1100), which lords over Lithuanian pagans and later enters into alliance with Poland (similar to GDL IOTL).
Hmm - I'd say there was so much historical accident in OTL's Polish-Lithuanian Union that I don't necessarily think an equivalent to it would arise ITTL. I agree on the possible role for Polotsk as a Catholic Russian - Lithuanian principality.

I would bet on Iran rather than Ottomans. IOTL Russia didn't have problems with Iran until at least 1800, but Ottomans and Russians were competing for Ukraine and (later) Northern Caucasus.

Well, yes, that's what I meant when i said "until their borders meet". If we assume that there is a tradition of crusades / jihad between Russia and its South-Western neighbours, the Russian Khanate(s) / Emirates may see the Ottomans as allies first, roughly until the Ottomans conquer Valachia.
 

Old Airman

Banned
I think Ottoman Turkish would be a possible parallel - a Turkish-based (here: Russian-based) literary language so full of Persian (and Arabic) loanwords and grammatical constructions that non-literate Turks (here: Russians) wouldn't understand it when it's read to them. Then, at some point in the modern age, a radical language reform that throws out many of these elements.
I thought about Turkish story. It isn't entirely correct comparison, as Turks conquered numerous men of letters who were creating their literary language for them. In case of Islamic Russia it would be relatively few preachers/imams who would come and Russians would need to care for themselves. Better comparison might be so-called Old Turkic, a language different from Tatar, Bashkir, Azeri etc. vernacular but close enough to be understood.
The question is whether the Russian principalities would start splitting up as they do IOTL (and you have lots of splits in the Islamic world at that time, too). If yes, the crusaders might go further
Historically, Crusaders had contact with outlying areas of Russia less prone to splits: Novgorod, Pskov, Polotsk. Besides, as we agreed, Northern Crusades would need to go through a belot oc Catholic or Pagan principalities North of Ryazan and Vitebsk but South of Baltic tribes (although we can witness a Catholic Polotsk, for example, crusading against Muslim Chernigov; that would be a sight to behold).
Again, if the Rusian principalities split, there wouldn't be a central power to stop Novgorod from Christanisation. In that case, it would be even more independent from "Russia" than IOTL, becoming a separate nation, more oriented towards Scandinavia. It probably still would colonise the Russian North
I do think Scandinavian influence is very over-emphasized in Novgorod's history. Scandinavians were never anything more than tiny minority in Slavic-Finnish sea there. Yes, Novgorod would become Catholic, yes there're good chances they would become an independent nations, but you need to look at Poland for inspiration. Another Catholic Slavic Nation.
, and there may be competition between Novgorod and Islamic Russia over Siberia.
I don't think so. A main road to Siberia goes up Kama river and across Urals, so Russian Khaganate would always control it (there's alternative one through Pechora basin, I think, but it is much harder and, although IOTL Russians knew about it since pre-Mongol, I think, it had never been widely used). So I'd bet on Siberia becoming a Russian Khaganat's colony ITTL.
 
There's alternative one through Pechora basin, I think, but it is much harder and, although IOTL Russians knew about it since pre-Mongol, I think, it had never been widely used). So I'd bet on Siberia becoming a Russian Khaganat's colony ITTL.

Well, there were campaigns as early as the 1300s to collect tribute but the Novgorodians never attempted colonization beyond the Urals until sailing technology became good enough, which was also later than the more southerly attempts through the Kama/Chusovaya.

So Novgorod starts with a long-term disadvantage despite an early start.
 
1) I don't believe in massive islamization of territory of OTL Belarus, climate doesn't approve (and yes, I know about Belarussian Tartars and Karaims, but it is a very special case).

2) And, as Iranian-Ottoman wars prove, religion doesn't prevent long and bitter wars if both states are looking for control of the same territory.

3) Yes, all Slavic and Nordic conversions were quite pragmatic. They converted into faith of your mightiest neighbour and main trading partner to make trade easier and to prevent Holy Wars. Poles and Norse were trading with Germanies - they became Catholic. Rus was trading with Constantinople - behold Orthodox Rus. So, in order to convert Rus into Islam, you need to eliminate Khazars somehow and give Rus control of Volga. Iran would become Rus's main trade partner and it would make sense for southern Rus rulers to adopt Islam.

1) OTL examples seem to indicate that getting a pork-eating muslims wouldn't be as hard as you seem to be pointing out to be here. Even as southerly as Bosnia for example, until rather recently Bektashi sect was prevalent in the country, and this sect permitted extensive consumption of pork. I can see more pretext to make this kind of play in Russia. Porks, while a factor, are simply not so much of a deal-killer against the spread of Islam, especially if it was spread peacefully in unorthodox brand, which was mostly the case of the spreading of Islam IOTL.

2) A bit nitpick here. While the main source of Ottoman-Safavid conflict was political, it almost immediately resulted in a sharp ideological difference between the belligerents. Your basic point still stands though.

3) It seems like this way would only result in a small portion of the Rus converting to Islam. Constantinople still seems to be a much more effective choice, if much harder indeed.
 
2) A bit nitpick here. While the main source of Ottoman-Safavid conflict was political, it almost immediately resulted in a sharp ideological difference between the belligerents. Your basic point still stands though.
Resulted? In the expansion period when the Ottomans wanted to go pick a fight with them they'd get the religious scholars to declare that the Shia (Twelvers) were indeed heretics. That only stopped somewhere in the 1600s I thought, maybe not until the Safavids were overthrown.

Anyhow the pork issue, my plan for a mostly Islamic Russia is to allow non-grape/date alcohol and to finesse the pork rules by allowing consumption of pork in limited times that are primarily grass/nut-fed more like the wild boars.
 
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