An Islamic Romania

What's with the David vs Goliath complex? You think the Albanians were easy to keep a lid on? You think the Bulgarians were pushovers? You think the Serbs and Croats didn't put up a fight? You think the Hungarians just bend over? The Turks had plenty of experience subduing people who didn't like their authority.

Fact is, by the early 16th century the Ottomans had all they really needed from us. We paid an immense tribute, we gave them military support when they asked for it, we let them use our territory to invade Transylvania or Poland, they strangled us strategically and economically through the territory they took from us, and our most powerful boyars were bidding for the thrones in Constantinople (and this was before the Phanariotes). In the nearly 2 centuries between Petru Rares' overthrow and the Phanariotes there were only a handful of serious attempts to shake off Turkish vassalage, Michael the Brave's being the most notable. We didn't survive because we were natural born killers and the Turks shook in their boots upon hearing of us, we survived because whatever local boyar or occasional foreigner gained the Wallachian or Moldavian crown could exploit the land more thoroughly for the Porte (and still keep something on the side) than the Turks themselves could. (Michael's raising of taxes to fight the Ottomans rather than placate them might be unique for this time period.) If we didn't inhabit some of the most fertile soil in Europe that arrangement would've never worked and we would've been annexed after the first time we failed to overthrow Ottoman control. It's not out of patriotism and warrior ethos that the population of that rich land was dropping even before the Phanariotes.

As for the Phanariotes, I don't think even you would argue that we were the scourge of the Empire then. The Phanariote period is when the Romanian people made the decisive move from a nation of warriors who fled to the woods to organize resistance against invaders to a nation of miserable peasants living half-underground who fled to the woods to escape the tax-man.
Young man, even rushed the hell out, this post is far better from your narcisist&confused manifestations before. Even you consider every romanian megalomaniac, when justified, every nation have their own braggings. My reaction was about Sa'id obsession about islamisation Romania, when states as Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia had more chances to be islamised. About the resistance against otomans, yes, serbians and hungarians resisted to, but not like vallachians. Not because vallachians would been more brave, but because of their location(I wished to take advantage of this, but...thanks!). Yes, I think Vlad and Stefan contributed to otomans decission, and was not futile. Yes, latter otomans could inforced upon us harsher policies, but they already took the decission not to islanise...not only Romania, but either Serbia, Bulgaria. The so called "tax free" islamisation, is ilogic, because turks ned lot of taxes. Yes, Vlad impaled islamic population-if others becomed victims, this was because he considered them a threat.
Neverthanless, if would been such easy to trasform vallachian states into pachalacs, turks would did it. No obedient ruller, or phanariot would prevented rebelions. Rebelions would been very costly for otomans, because the distance from Istambul, mountaineous terrain, proximity of christian kingdoom which would provided help to vallachians. I'd say, even would been very risky, for integrity of Otoman Empire itself. Michael the Brave rebellion made turks from Istambul to shiver for their lifes. Otoman Empire was far from a very stable rock-temple- it was more likely a cards-castle building. When a serious force treaten it, it could colapse any time.
And for sa'id: think if I'd be turk, maybe I'd have a simmilar oppinion like you, but I'm not
 
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Young man, even rushed the hell out, this post is far better from your narcisist&confused manifestations before.

It's rushed because I have stuff to do and if you want to descend to the level of personal attacks you should know that I can sink pretty damn deep.

My reaction was about Sa'id obsession about islamisation Romania, when states as Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia had more chances to be islamised.
Sa'id talked about a "significant portion". Fact is, a significant portion of Bulgarians and Greeks did convert, as did a larger number of Serbo-Croats (we call the descendants of those converts Bosniaks) and a majority of Albanians. Romanians did not convert for the simple reason that the Ottomans never extended direct control over Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania (or over Ragusa and the west Georgian states). Even if all the Bulgarians had converted, this would not have made any difference north of the Danube - we were outside the process altogether.

And if you're as seasoned and experienced as you try to imply you are (though your first personal message to me gives cause for doubt) then you should know why gratuitously accusing someone of having an obsession is beneath intelligent debate.

About the resistance against otomans, yes, serbians and hungarians resisted to, but not like vallachians. Not because vallachians would been more brave, but because of their location(I wished to take advantage of this, but...thanks!). Yes, I think Vlad and Stefan contributed to otomans decission, and was not futile. Yes, latter otomans could inforced upon us harsher policies, but they already took the decission not to islanise...not only Romania, but either Serbia, Bulgaria. The so called "tax free" islamisation, is ilogic, because turks need lot of taxes. Yes, Vlad impaled islamic population-if others becomed victims, this was because he considered them a threat.
Neverthanless, if would been such easy to trasform vallachian states into pachalacs, turks would did it. No obedient ruller, or phanariot would prevented rebelions. Rebelions would been very costly for otomans, because the distance from Istambul, mountaineous terrain, proximity of christian kingdoom which would provided help to vallachians. I'd say, even would been very risky, for integrity of Otoman Empire itself. Michael the Brave rebellion made turks from Istambul to shaver for their lifes. Otoman Empire was far from a very stable rock-temple- it was more likely a cards-castle building. When a serious force treaten it, it could colapse any time.
Good lord, the time I'll have to waste here!

The Ottoman Empire was tough. I mean, really tough. That's the historical record talking. A house of cards doesn't stretch from the gates of Vienna to the Bab-el-Mandeb. It was Europe's strongest power while stagnating and its decline stretched for over 2 centuries. Michael, who wouldn't have lived to see that decline under any conditions, rebelled against the Porte at a time when it was engaged in war against Austria and having to keep an eye out for Poland-Lithuania and Persia. And he still needed to have Transylvania and Moldavia by his side, which explains his later actions. The Turks almost did turn Wallachia into a province in 1595 and would've done it in 1600 if not for the fact that it was occupied by the Poles, who'd overthrown him there and whose neutrality was needed.

You'd know this if you read some Ottoman history. You'd also know that quite a lot of Serbian, Albanian and Greek highlanders were defying Ottoman power even at its height - one such group created Montenegro. They too had good defensive terrain, distance from Constantinople and proximity to Christian powers. The Ottoman response was to not care all that much. Whatever resistance would form in the mountains of Bucegi or Vrancea or Ceahlau would be a minor nuissance. The Turks would have the agricultural land, the towns, the fortresses, and the trade route into Poland, which would be more than enough to offset the cost of defending against the highlanders.

You'd also know that the Ottoman Empire, like all Islamic states back then, had different taxes for Muslims and non-Muslims - it was a matter of religious law, not conversion policy. And that this difference, along with the prospect of higher office and membership in the priviledged group, led many to convert, including Serbs and Bulgarians, but it was a gradual process and some regions (the Rhodopes, Crete, Bosnia, the Sandzak, central Albania, Kosovo) experienced it more than others.
 
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Yes, the discussion is now normal. Your former assertions about romanians were not only gratuit, but confused.
do you mean it would been more easy than annexed Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia? why?
Because the POD is in 1500 and those areas have already been annexed to the Ottoman Empire not that it did them any good, they kept the Eastern Orthodox Church alive and some may say even prospering to prevent mass conversions to Islam.
This was my point! Sa'id sais Romania would been more facile to be islamised than Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece. I dissagree!
It's rushed because I have stuff to do and if you want to descend to the level of personal attacks you should know that I can sink pretty damn deep.
Sorry, who begun with personal attack? Thats why I've said you was confused-you don't realise.

Romanians did not convert for the simple reason that the Ottomans never extended direct control over Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania (or over Ragusa and the west Georgian states).
Yes, and this not because it would been imposible, but because it would been costly and risky, as I've said.
Even if all the Bulgarians had converted, this would not have made any difference north of the Danube - we were outside the process altogether.
This is, somehow, naive. As Wallachia would had an ermetic border with Bulgaria: no intermarriage, no migrants...

And if you're as seasoned and experienced as you try to imply you are (though your first personal message to me gives cause for doubt) then you should know why gratuitously accusing someone of having an obsession is beneath intelligent debate.
You should have more self criticism-I didn't start.

The Ottoman Empire was tough. I mean, really tough.
It had periods when it was really tough. Many periods, indeed. If I'd be turk, I'd be proud about these periods. But combined with instability periods, when it was very vulnerable.
It was Europe's strongest power while stagnating and its decline stretched for over 2 centuries. Michael, who wouldn't have lived to see that decline under any conditions, rebelled against the Porte at a time when it was engaged in war against Austria and having to keep an eye out for Poland-Lithuania and Persia.
I think, even as romanian, you're not the proper person to criticise a small ruller strugle, as of Michael. Honest persons criticise first the big guys.
The Turks almost did turn Wallachia into a province in 1595 and would've done it in 1600 if not for the fact that it was occupied by the Poles, who'd overthrown him there and whose neutrality was needed.
this explain itself how constantly tough otomans were.

You'd know this if you read some Ottoman history. You'd also know that quite a lot of Serbian, Albanian and Greek highlanders were defying Ottoman power even at its height - one such group created Montenegro. They too had good defensive terrain, distance from Constantinople and proximity to Christian powers.
My oppinion is not like this. the situation was different. Romanian mountains more inaccesible for otoman armies. Vallachian life-style could kept a rebel enough population to treaten otoman achievements. Example: previous Țepeș and Ștefan actions. Extra: romanian states were in proximity of poles, habsburghs, russians. your above example are only of habsburgs. And the vallachian zones were not such tempting, as dalmatia, macedonia...
 
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Alright, I've just finished an interesting exchange of PMs with Perix, who is now the latest addition to my ignore list. I leave his last post to whoever wishes to waste his or her (as if) time on him.

Edit: Someone explain to him what an ignore list means and why his last laugh went unheard.
 
Just a thought: You think I could get this guy kicked for thinly-veiled threats of bodily harm made in a PM in a language that Ian doesn't understand?
 
Just a thought: You think I could get this guy kicked for thinly-veiled threats of bodily harm made in a PM in a language that Ian doesn't understand?
Post it, and I'll translate, so everybody can see if are really threaten, or not. Of course, I'll post yours either. My advice is to search for causes in your vanitous, malitious, agressive, and narcisist behavior
And, son! I've sent you those pm trying to reconciliate. Instead, you took advantage in inflaming more and more the discution, in this thread. I recognise, it was worthless!
 
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To get to the OP - it is possible to have a significant portion of *Romanians convert to Islam, just like how it is possible to have a significan portion of Turkic people convert to Orthodox Christianity (wheher it's through the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Russian Orthodox Church - particularly of the Old Believer type - or the Armenian Apostolic Church/Georgian Orthodox Church I leave up to you) or a Eastern Catholic variant thereof, as the Chuvash - oops, чăвашсем or Căvašsem - demonstrate. The OP, however, asks the following:

Bonus points if it is Wallachia, Moldova, or Transylvania that converts to Islam.

So, we have choices here. Of these three, Wallachia would be the closest as it already has some form of relationship with the Ottoman Empire. Moldavia would be far out there as it is in the same boat as the *Ukraine, *Belarus, and other such areas under Polish rule; same thing with Transylvania, though with some differences and some possibilities.
 
bonus, the title is An islamic Romania. An islamic country can't be only 20% muslims

Oui, je sais la titre est "An Islamic Romania", mais c'est un "misnomer". You could have the whole of *Romania or bits and pieces. The reality being that it would be easier to have specific regions convert than an entire nation.
 
Also about Romainia well... I guess that it's not possible unless somehow the Ottomans managed to commit genocide M de Dan 1988
On the other hand, in the same way Vlad Țepeș considered a threat the islamisation of bulgarians, a ventual islamisation of romanians would been considered a big threat by poles, hungarians, russians, and not only
 
Ah Monsieur tis good to see a Frenchman Mon Ami! Ahh Ma foy

Also about Romainia well... I guess that it's not possible unless somehow the Ottomans managed to commit genocide M de Dan 1988

First off - j'suis un canado-américain. ;) I'm not a Frenchman by any stretch - indeed, my English is better than my French.

Second off - no unpleasantness needed. Concentrating on one region at a time is probably better in the long run, even if you have people like the Maniots who are just going to be a perpetual headache - there's always something similar in every area of the world. Considering that both the Poles and the Hapsburgs - not to mention the Russians - each owned areas of *Romania at times, this flux could actually be advantegeous to a strategy of concentrating on one region at a time for converting people to Islam. Another option would be like how the Javanese converted to Islam - when the merchants traded with the Javanese, the latter were impressed with the piety of the merchants and thus made conversion an attractive prospect (or so it's been told).
 
On the other hand, in the same way Vlad Țepeș considered a threat the islamisation of bulgarians, a ventual islamisation of romanians would been considered a big threat by poles, hungarians, russians, and not only

Then focus on the period pre-Vlad Tsepesh or find some way of getting Vlad Tsepesh out of the way.
 
First off - j'suis un canado-américain. ;) I'm not a Frenchman by any stretch - indeed, my English is better than my French.

Second off - no unpleasantness needed. Concentrating on one region at a time is probably better in the long run, even if you have people like the Maniots who are just going to be a perpetual headache - there's always something similar in every area of the world. Considering that both the Poles and the Hapsburgs - not to mention the Russians - each owned areas of *Romania at times, this flux could actually be advantegeous to a strategy of concentrating on one region at a time for converting people to Islam. Another option would be like how the Javanese converted to Islam - when the merchants traded with the Javanese, the latter were impressed with the piety of the merchants and thus made conversion an attractive prospect (or so it's been told).




Oh I get it now Monsieur I shall remember this, :c So then I guess Monsieur Romania to convert Ottomans might be able to convert If they jacked up prices and segregated non Muslims.
 
Then focus on the period pre-Vlad Tsepesh or find some way of getting Vlad Tsepesh out of the way.
Ja wohl!
On the other hand, a ventual islamisation of romanians would been considered a big threat by poles, hungarians, russians, and not only
 
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