An Irish Anti-wank

Yeah. If Irish romanticism stems from the suffering persecution, how awesome will Ireland appear if they're actively being chased by the Americans in their expansion west!


I don't know if your being sarcastic or not, but I'll just assume your being genuine X)
Mexico would be an intresting enough destination.
Oh, a little of both. I would read a book like that as sort of a guilty pleasure, but not a realistic TL most likely. Just a fun idea.

And besides Mexico there's the option of heading to Canada and launching a rebellion there, too. Not the smartest idea for a book, but in the right hands, I think it would be kind of fun.
 
Oh, a little of both. I would read a book like that as sort of a guilty pleasure, but not a realistic TL most likely. Just a fun idea.
There is something almost Turtledovian about it I must admit :). It won't be accurate, but it'll sure as shit be fun!

And besides Mexico there's the option of heading to Canada and launching a rebellion there, too. Not the smartest idea for a book, but in the right hands, I think it would be kind of fun.
Well if Britains more hostile it's probably not the wisest move. Though I'd like to see a reverse Fenian invasion!

Yeah, we could see more of these: Batallón de San Patricio
Libertad para Mexica!!!!!
I do love those guys, what a heritage they have left for we Irish! A heroic death and a free drink in every bar in Mexico!
I do recall hearing about a Mexican general who tried to recruit Fenians to form a new battalion. It failed of course, but it wpuld be nice to think that Mexico becomes some sort of "Promised Land" for the Irish :)
 
Thank you for your suggestions, however an integrated Irish-Black culture/community is not the final item I'm trying to get to.
I want to make things as bad for the Irish as I can, not out of any hatred fir them, I myself am a proud Irishman, but because the Irish romanticism derives from our suffering in the past.

Plus I just think it's very intresting :D


o_O
My bad.....

You could have the Irish being more radicalized like the Palestinians OTL and constantly talking about getting their land back. They don't care about America (and show it) they just see it as a launch pad to drive the British out of Ireland.

You could have a more active Fenian movement annoying the US government by trying to form' a state within a state' and launching constant attacks on British interests that damage Anglo-American relations.

Protestant Americans become more exasperated by the perceived irrational behavior of the Irish and the name becomes synonymous with terrorist/anarchist.

As a result the US government eventually passes laws against the Irish community forbidding Irish organizations, language and political expression.

Finally after World War One Irish immigration is forbidden along with Japanese and Chinese.

The Irish/Black common community is ASB. American blacks are not likely to see any white people as their brothers in arms or fellow sufferers. The Black community largely rejected the Jews, who were at the bottom of the 'white tree' so why would they accept the Irish.
 
Wasn't his Catholicism a prolblem? I guess that even in the North it was much more about it.
I also think that the Jews were quite hated in the South (well, not that they were loved in the North, actually). So my point is that both in the North and in the South race and religion were important, while ethnicity as such was less. I have no knowledge of discriminations against, say Swedes.

There were two Jewish senators before the Civil War both from the South, and one of them (Judah P. Benjamin) went on to become the 1st CSA Attorney General, 2nd CSA Secretary of War, and 3rd CSA Secretary of State.

It really was all about skin color down in Dixie, I can't see any POD changing that unless you go back to the 1600s and start messing around with the origins of slavery itself.
 
There were two Jewish senators before the Civil War both from the South, and one of them (Judah P. Benjamin) went on to become the 1st CSA Attorney General, 2nd CSA Secretary of War, and 3rd CSA Secretary of State.

It really was all about skin color down in Dixie, I can't see any POD changing that unless you go back to the 1600s and start messing around with the origins of slavery itself.

I didn't know that, thanks. I knew that the Klan was Anti-Semitic, but indeed at that time there were people talking crap about the Jewish "race" yet.
 
A thing that I think is worth considering is the high degree of communal clash in America. I mean that, as a European, I am struck at seeing how minorities who are oppressed, hated or discriminated against are very often represented as clashing each other, thus contributing to the general oppression of every single oppressed community. (I think the term "clustering" describes this, partly) Yeah, it happens also elsewhere, but I still fail to see why in principle the Irish, Italians, Blacks, Asians, Jews and so on did not try to overcome mutual prejudices and unite. It did not happen often. On the contrary, Catholics in the US, AFAIK, were a stronghold of Anti-Semitism, especially Irish and Poles,for example.
 
You could have the Irish being more radicalized like the Palestinians OTL and constantly talking about getting their land back. They don't care about America (and show it) they just see it as a launch pad to drive the British out of Ireland.

You could have a more active Fenian movement annoying the US government by trying to form' a state within a state' and launching constant attacks on British interests that damage Anglo-American relations.

Protestant Americans become more exasperated by the perceived irrational behavior of the Irish and the name becomes synonymous with terrorist/anarchist.

As a result the US government eventually passes laws against the Irish community forbidding Irish organizations, language and political expression.

Finally after World War One Irish immigration is forbidden along with Japanese and Chinese.
So a state within a state? You mean like they basically try to set up the apparatus of the new Irish state in America?

The Irish/Black common community is ASB. American blacks are not likely to see any white people as their brothers in arms or fellow sufferers. The Black community largely rejected the Jews, who were at the bottom of the 'white tree' so why would they accept the Irish.
Well as I mentioned in my first post, there was a large amount of interaction between the Irish and Black communities, and the Americans basically saw them as the same people with different skin.
Even today I've today I've heard stories of Black people, often in America, trying to claim a solidarity between themselves and the Irish. However I heard this story of fucking Stormfront (not my fault, when you have to type in "Irish niggers" to get any material on this topic, you're eventually going to find yourself on that shithole of a site!) so the Irish person certainly didn't see and connection between himself and the black person!

So basically the two groups interacted a lot more, and the Blacks seem to have been friendly enough with the Irish before they started "turning American".

A thing that I think is worth considering is the high degree of communal clash in America. I mean that, as a European, I am struck at seeing how minorities who are oppressed, hated or discriminated against are very often represented as clashing each other, thus contributing to the general oppression of every single oppressed community. (I think the term "clustering" describes this, partly) Yeah, it happens also elsewhere, but I still fail to see why in principle the Irish, Italians, Blacks, Asians, Jews and so on did not try to overcome mutual prejudices and unite. It did not happen often. On the contrary, Catholics in the US, AFAIK, were a stronghold of Anti-Semitism, especially Irish and Poles,for example.
Yeah it's very odd. I think it's got more to do with the trying to "act American". If you can show how much you despise the other groups, maybe the Americans will view you as an equal.

Though Ireland itself was not overtly anti-Semetic. IIRC, there were one or two violent clashes in the west of Ireland, and tgese were met by condemation by the rest of the country, but apart from that they weren't discriminated against too badly.
Though I think things got a little worse for them over here around WWII. Not sure why though.
 
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Oh, I agree, it does sound fun in a pulpy-fiction sort of way.

"The Fenian Exodus! Chased through America by racist Federal Troops, the bleaguered Irishmen launch a daring escape and conquest into the empty lands of the [North/West/South/Whatever] to find true Freedom. But with enemies from without and tensions within, can they succeed? Or are the children of the Emerald Isle doomed to tyranny?"

The mayor in "Blazing Saddles" DID say to the refugees coming into his town, offering to help defend the town from ruthless outlaws:"We'll take the niggers, and the chinks, but not the Irish!:D:rolleyes:
 
I didn't know that, thanks. I knew that the Klan was Anti-Semitic, but indeed at that time there were people talking crap about the Jewish "race" yet.

That was the second Ku Klux Klan, which had a powerbase in the Midwest, not the South, and wasn't the same thing as the original Klan.
 
The mayor in "Blazing Saddles" DID say to the refugees coming into his town, offering to help defend the town from ruthless outlaws:"We'll take the niggers, and the chinks, but not the Irish!:D:rolleyes:
They accepted them in the end though :p

Anyway, the "Fenian Exodus" idea, has perked my intrests. As ASB as it sounds, I'd be intrested in reading, if not actually writing, a TL about that.
I say Mexico would be their best bet. It's a strongly Catholic nation, it's got a very good climate, mountains and strong drink. I think they'd be very happy there.
And since this will be so soon after the American-Mexican war, they'll be welcomed with open arms, that is untill their population size becomes a problem....
 
Hey there.

Interesting thread, but I see some items that I would address.

As a white, mixed Irish/Scottish-American, my take is that the poor Irish (as opposed to the not so poor Irish) immigrants were viewed as scum and often lured to the new world with the promise of freedom from European cultural oppression. The reality was quite different from the promises. The cost of passage was supposed to be paid for by working for no pay for a time sufficient to equal the price of passage, but then the unannounced additions of cost of living/upkeep (not to mention interest charged upon these), meant that a poor Irish immigrant would end up going ever deeper into debt. This was the other form of slavery, called indentured servitude. The problem with this is, when an Irishman just decided to head for parts unknown, there is no way to just look at him and know he is a runaway 'indentured servant'.

My understanding is that this was one of the principle problems in keeping white people as slaves in all but name, and one of the main reasons for importing blacks.

In other words, if a white IS runs away, catching him is going to be very difficult and costly (and time consuming) as he can just blend into the melting pot of European immigrants. When the Black man runs away, everyone that sees him automatically thinks runaway slave (or at least this was the prevalent point of view) and so his recapture and return is going to be much quicker and less expensive.

So, the poor Irish trash and the Black man may seem to have something in common, but this is not something that is going to bring them together.

One comment I found strange was something like "In order to fit in, the Irish started to hate on the Blacks".

Before the ACW, the Irish were the poor, despised workers. After the war, freed Black former slaves began to compete for the jobs that the Irish were relegated to, and this (to my understanding) is where the tensions began between the Irish poor and the freedmen. Competition for the lowly, badly compensated jobs that nobody else wanted, not some racial or social-acceptance ploy on the part of the Irish, just a grim situation made worse by the sudden competition for already scarce means of earning a living.

One fellow did post that a need for plentiful jobs would be likely to be a prerequisite for the premise in the OP to take place. I agree. Something would have to be drastically changed if the freedmen and Irish poor were to be something other than adversaries, IMHO.

All in all an interesting premise, and looking forward to seeing what you will come up with to overcome these obstacles.:cool:
 
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