An Inquiry on India

[Moonstruck]

I would like to preface this post with an expression of gratitude for the numerous enjoyable timelines on this site, an apology in case this topic has already been discussed to death,which I gather is the case for several topics popular amongst newbies such as I, as well as a statement that I am well aware of my relative lack of historical knowledge, and that, though I attempt to alleviate this problem as I best know how, I am aware that it will likely show in the following questions.

As I have read through various timelines on the site - I freely admit that I have stuck primarily to the more popular ones; there is, after all, a reason for their popularity - one thing that has struck me is the relative lack of material featuring one civilization which I would think rather important during the early days of human civilization, namely, the pre-Islamic Indian one. While it hasn't affected the world in too major ways during the last millennium, I'd say it has, historically, been a rather interesting place.

Digging through whatever online resources I could find, I soon realized what I assume is a major part of the reason for this: The sources are few and scattered, and the historiography is a quagmire of post-imperialistic nationalism and a clash of rabid political ideologues. Being, however, a member of Generation (Y+Z)/2, I am unaccustomed to not having things my way, and clearly don't know when to give up. With this, I trudged on, digging up what I could, and trying to piece together something resembling a proper starting point for a timeline of my very own. Now, I am left with a vague set of goals, as well as a few questions.

To put it briefly, my goal would be to create a world wherein a strong, northern Indian culture emerges, preferably based on some mix of Buddhist, Hindu and Jaina influences, perhaps with a touch or two of Zoroastrianism. Ideally, this culture would then end up influencing the world as a whole, much in the manner of OTL western civilization. In order to accomplish this, I realize that I need some way of preventing the Islamic invasion of India, and to somehow create a cultural climate wherein wealth and innovation could flourish. My questions are these:

• Would it be possible to have a successor state to the Maurya Empire arise in the regions of Gujarat and western Maharashtra, somehow becoming strong enough to repel or redirect the Indo-Greek and Scythian invasions? One idea I've been toying with is to have the Maurya fall apart some thirty years earlier, and having a western state split off.
• Would the existence of a more centralized power in India during the seventh to twelth century be able to likewise prevent the Islamic invasion, thus preserving the hegemony of the Vedic and Dharmic religions?
• Given the presumed level of trade between Indian and Islamic civilization, then, as well as the continued interaction between India and China (Which was present in OTL, at least during earlier times), would it be possible for something resembling the Golden Age of Islam to emerge in said northern Indian culture, provided the development of a social and religious climate favouring innovation and a naturalistic world-view?
• Are there any sources that you would recommend for an improved understanding of Indian culture, especially in northern and central India, between 300 BCE and 1200 CE? I'm currently trying to get my hands on Early India: From Origins to 1200 AD by Romila Thapar, which seems to be one of the best for someone without a formal background in any related field, as well as close to no knowledge about the period as a whole, but honestly, finding any proper litterature seems close to impossible. Any and all recommendations would be welcomed.

And finally:

• Is there anything bleeding obvious I have missed? Is this a good enough candidate for a serious TL, or is it just me wanking my latest idea? I realize that there are probably numerous good reasons for things not going this way in OTL, but I just feel that, well, something more could've come of things.

Again, my gratitude for (presumably) reading this – Alternate History can be a complex affair, and hard to get into as an outsider, but it's fascinating, and, I believe, definitely worth a try.

 

[King of Rome]

I think that such a timeline would be an interesting read, though I'm a nub myself. I have been reading here for a while and don't recall such a timeline- so good luck.

 

[Flocculencio]

It's possible- it'd have to be a particularly robust and centralised Empire in the Indo-Gangetic plains.

Interaction between India and China tended to be much more of a South Indian thing- the North was somewhat more insular. Actually what you're proposing seems to be North India pretty much continuing on the trajectory that the South mostly did IOTL.

 

[kasumigenx]

It's possible- it'd have to be a particularly robust and centralised Empire in the Indo-Gangetic plains.

Interaction between India and China tended to be much more of a South Indian thing- the North was somewhat more insular. Actually what you're proposing seems to be North India pretty much continuing on the trajectory that the South mostly did IOTL.

Northeastern India and Southern China tend to influence each other.

 

[Flocculencio]

Northeastern India and Southern China tend to influence each other.

True but I got the impression that he was focussing more on the Indo-Gangetic plain heartland of North India. The North-East isn't really part of that.

 

[Moonstruck]

I am, indeed, trying to focus on what will, at least initially, be a primarily north-western Indian civilization and/or culture. In my opinion, the modern-day focus on pan-Indian identity is a somewhat anachronistic idea, and as such, it certainly isn't a vital development. The Indo-Gangetic Plain seems like a good place for one such civilization, and therefore, it's what I'll focus on, initially.

Now, I do not think that I'll be heading in quite the same direction as the OTL southern Indian states, if nothing else, then because I plan to have Hinduism continuing to decline in favour of especially Buddhism and Jainism. It will likely have a bit of a revival at some later point, especially some of the more esoteric Shakti sects (I mean, hey, who doesn't like the thought of militant Kalikula creating political instability?), but I'm reasonably sure it'll remain a minority religion, encompassing no more than about ten percent of the population.

I may have a slightly skewed view of the Indian religions - though I wouldn't say biased, given the fact that I am not familiar with any of them on a personal basis - but I'd venture a guess and say that it would be possible for a scholarly tradition to arise, featuring a naturalistic world-view and hopefully leading to some scientific advances, given the focus on enlightenment as an ideal in all three primary religions: Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism. This would, of course, require an influx of wealth, as well as an advanced enough society, but I'd assume that with both overland and maritime trade linking them to Arabia, Persia and beyond, this should be possible.

 

[Ganesha]

I am, indeed, trying to focus on what will, at least initially, be a primarily north-western Indian civilization and/or culture. In my opinion, the modern-day focus on pan-Indian identity is a somewhat anachronistic idea, and as such, it certainly isn't a vital development. The Indo-Gangetic Plain seems like a good place for one such civilization, and therefore, it's what I'll focus on, initially.

The Indo-Gangetic plain is a good location for such an empire to develop. The problem is that there are two natural centers of power which develop along the plane. One is in Bengal at the high-density region of the Ganges and Brahmaputra deltas. This area has been the center of North Indian empires like the Pala Empire, the Nanda Empire, and the Sunga Empire. On the opposite side, you have the productive regions of the Indus Valley and the Greater Punjab. This has been the center of the majority of North Indian Empires, like the Maurya, the Gupta, and the Mughals. It might be interesting to see these two sites equal and separate for most of Indian history, thus creating competing centers of culture. This could spur development and technology.

Now, I do not think that I'll be heading in quite the same direction as the OTL southern Indian states, if nothing else, then because I plan to have Hinduism continuing to decline in favour of especially Buddhism and Jainism. It will likely have a bit of a revival at some later point, especially some of the more esoteric Shakti sects (I mean, hey, who doesn't like the thought of militant Kalikula creating political instability?), but I'm reasonably sure it'll remain a minority religion, encompassing no more than about ten percent of the population.

So Southern India will remain Hindu? That could create an interesting situation. You could have a modern syncretic religion that combines the Hinduism and Buddhism, which was something proposed many times in OTL but never really got off the ground. A more successful syncretism could lead to greater religious harmony. The revival is almost certain, given the depths of Hindu culture in India.

I may have a slightly skewed view of the Indian religions - though I wouldn't say biased, given the fact that I am not familiar with any of them on a personal basis - but I'd venture a guess and say that it would be possible for a scholarly tradition to arise, featuring a naturalistic world-view and hopefully leading to some scientific advances, given the focus on enlightenment as an ideal in all three primary religions: Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism. This would, of course, require an influx of wealth, as well as an advanced enough society, but I'd assume that with both overland and maritime trade linking them to Arabia, Persia and beyond, this should be possible.

It would be very possible. The monastic and scientific traditions of Buddhism and Hinduism are ripe for a scholarly culture which endures beyond individual dynasties and kingdoms. The influx of wealth is no problem. You've got nothing to worry about there. India had the largest economy in the world from the fall of the Roman Empire to the 19th century, at least according to economic historian Angus Maddison. There's plenty of wealth over there. That's not something you need to worry about.

Finally, I think it's great you're planning to do a timeline about India. There is indeed a sore lack of those timelines! Shoot me a PM when you start it, or if you have a question. I'm looking forward to it! Welcome to the forum!

Cheers,
Ganesha

 

[Ganesha]

Forgot to mention it; as an articulate, thoughtful, clear, and excellent newbie, you deserve a star! It's always nice to see good grammar and intelligence from newbies.

So here's your star!

 

[Flocculencio]

The Indo-Gangetic plain is a good location for such an empire to develop. The problem is that there are two natural centers of power which develop along the plane. One is in Bengal at the high-density region of the Ganges and Brahmaputra deltas. This area has been the center of North Indian empires like the Pala Empire, the Nanda Empire, and the Sunga Empire. On the opposite side, you have the productive regions of the Indus Valley and the Greater Punjab. This has been the center of the majority of North Indian Empires, like the Maurya, the Gupta, and the Mughals. It might be interesting to see these two sites equal and separate for most of Indian history, thus creating competing centers of culture. This could spur development and technology.



So Southern India will remain Hindu? That could create an interesting situation. You could have a modern syncretic religion that combines the Hinduism and Buddhism, which was something proposed many times in OTL but never really got off the ground. A more successful syncretism could lead to greater religious harmony. The revival is almost certain, given the depths of Hindu culture in India.



It would be very possible. The monastic and scientific traditions of Buddhism and Hinduism are ripe for a scholarly culture which endures beyond individual dynasties and kingdoms. The influx of wealth is no problem. You've got nothing to worry about there. India had the largest economy in the world from the fall of the Roman Empire to the 19th century, at least according to economic historian Angus Maddison. There's plenty of wealth over there. That's not something you need to worry about.

Finally, I think it's great you're planning to do a timeline about India. There is indeed a sore lack of those timelines! Shoot me a PM when you start it, or if you have a question. I'm looking forward to it! Welcome to the forum!

Cheers,
Ganesha

A very competent summary. I'd point out that for a model for syncretic Hindu-Buddhist culture you could look at pre-Islamic Indonesia.

 

[Moonstruck]

Forgot to mention it; as an articulate, thoughtful, clear, and excellent newbie, you deserve a star! It's always nice to see good grammar and intelligence from newbies.

Ah, thank you. It's always nice to be complimented, even if my underlying reasons are more motivated by hubris and the wish for said compliments than anything else. Now, as to your most excellent (No exchange of compliments being complete when one-sided) points:

The Indo-Gangetic plain is a good location for such an empire to develop. The problem is that there are two natural centers of power which develop along the plane. One is in Bengal at the high-density region of the Ganges and Brahmaputra deltas. This area has been the center of North Indian empires like the Pala Empire, the Nanda Empire, and the Sunga Empire. On the opposite side, you have the productive regions of the Indus Valley and the Greater Punjab. This has been the center of the majority of North Indian Empires, like the Maurya, the Gupta, and the Mughals. It might be interesting to see these two sites equal and separate for most of Indian history, thus creating competing centers of culture. This could spur development and technology.

I was, indeed, thinking of having the much-discussed civilization arise somewhere around modern-day Gujarat, then slowly spreading down the coast and up the Indo-Gangetic plain. For it to be able to withstand the Scythians, some military strength would of course be necessary, which would likely be helped along by possession of the rich farmlands of the northern plains, but in the long run, I think that the trading ports lining the Gulf of Khambhat will become almost as important. If nothing else, some measure of knowledge might conceivably be spread, what with said ports having had OTL trade with everyone from Romans to the Persians to the Portuguese, and the influx of wealth itself cannot be discounted.

You also have a good point regarding the conflict between states leading to forced innovation, as was the case for Europe. Given my lack of understanding of history as a whole, I cannot exactly vouch for much of Guns, Germs and Steel with much certainty, but that part, at least, seems to make sense even to the uninitiated, and there is, after all, a reason for the book's popularity here.

So Southern India will remain Hindu? That could create an interesting situation. You could have a modern syncretic religion that combines the Hinduism and Buddhism, which was something proposed many times in OTL but never really got off the ground. A more successful syncretism could lead to greater religious harmony. The revival is almost certain, given the depths of Hindu culture in India.

I'd point out that for a model for syncretic Hindu-Buddhist culture you could look at pre-Islamic Indonesia.

Ah, no. While a few traits of Hinduism might find its way in, I think that Buddhism will remain largely untouched thereby, or at least not particularly much more so than in OTL. From what I can tell, based on the meagre online sources detailing the history of the area, the period surrounding the Maurya Empire had a surge in Buddhist and Jaina belief in the area, at the cost of Hindu influence. If possible, I'd like to explore this deviation as much as possible: While Hinduism may be a very fundamental part of Indian culture in OTL, there really wasn't much of an Indian culture at the time. To put it in terms I, myself, would be familiar with, Norse Mythology may very well have been closely bound to the Germanic peoples in Scandinavia, but I'd have a hard time finding many of its traces in 14th century Denmark.

In the ATL northern India, Buddhism (In its various forms) would likely be the religion of by far the majority of the people, with the Jaina serving many of the same functions as the Jews of the European Middle Ages, only rather more socially accepted, as well as an influential part of the intellectual mainstream. Hinduism would still be present, of course, but would mostly flourish in isolated communities, as well as the odd Shaktist(?) revival.

Still, I'll take a look at what you've told me - I have yet to get my hands on any proper sources, so I'm hardly decided on any one path yet, and if nothing else, I might be inspired.

It would be very possible. The monastic and scientific traditions of Buddhism and Hinduism are ripe for a scholarly culture which endures beyond individual dynasties and kingdoms. The influx of wealth is no problem. You've got nothing to worry about there. India had the largest economy in the world from the fall of the Roman Empire to the 19th century, at least according to economic historian Angus Maddison. There's plenty of wealth over there. That's not something you need to worry about.

Got it. There'd probably be some periods of reactionary thinking as well, but eh, that's what you get when dealing with silly humans.

Finally, I think it's great you're planning to do a timeline about India. There is indeed a sore lack of those timelines! Shoot me a PM when you start it, or if you have a question. I'm looking forward to it! Welcome to the forum!

Again, thanks for the compliments - Such ones are always nice. Normally, I'd warn you against offering to answer whatever questions I might have, as that tends to be a lot, but in this case, I'm probably going to have to turn you down. I appreciate the offer of assistance, but given my total ignorance of the subject, I'd think it best if I had access to as many possible views on any given subject as possible. That, after all, is part of the purpose of this thread. Still, I am grateful for the offer - I have a lot to learn, and I'm looking forward to it. For now, however, sleep beckons.

This length, and my gratitude for the plethora of post-ichthyosaurs,
- Moonstruck

 

[Moonstruck]

I know that most forums tend to frown on thread necromancy, but I'd think it better to resuscitate my own thread than start a new one on the exact same matter.

So, alright. Having finally gotten my hands on at least one piece of proper literature on the period, I think I've got an idea for a semi-plausible PoD for this timeline I have in mind. Reading, as I have, more about the subject, I realize that not all of my previous ideas might be attainable, but that's not too bad.

IOTL, the Maurya empire lasted until 185 BCE, when the last emperor was assassinated by his general, Pushyamitra, thus leading to the establishment of the Sunga dynasty, and the loss of large parts of western India to the Indo-Greeks. ITTL, a previous emperor, Salisuka, dies by violent means in 206 BCE, four years before his OTL death. Having already been a rather troublesome leader, the chaos following his death leads to rebellion in the westernmost provinces, where an as-of-yet unnamed charismatic governor of the city of Ujjain, the place where Ashoka is said to first have encountered the teachings of the Buddha, declares himself king.

The resulting kingdom, able to consolidate its holdings more than a decade before the IOTL fall of the Maurya, discourages an attack by the Greco-Bactrians, who had just concluded a war with the Seleucid Empire, and were as such still recovering. Focusing instead on the north of their holdings, the Greco-Bactrians are able to withstand the eventual Scythian invasion, and, as the Yuezhi once more encroach on their territory, these then move to displace the Alans, rather than going into India, as in OTL. With the Alans then moving into Europe, that should make things a wee bit harder for the Romans, and as such, western civilization might be slightly slowed down.

D'you reckon this idea would have potential?

 

[The Ubbergeek]

(Adding stuff to one's own thread is okay specially if it have deep ideas and all that.)

 

[Ganesha]

*snip*

It's a good PoD and quite plausible, but where would you go from there?

The Alans moving into Europe early may cause some troubles for the Romans, but it's worth keeping in mind that in the timeframe you're talking about, the Romans weren't the only powerful state around the Mediterranean. Pontus, Armenia, and the Gallic states were also tempting targets for the Alans.

Meanwhile, in India, the Mauryan successor states could develop into stable regimes if they each adopt the governing structure of the Mauryan Empire itself. But what you choose to do with them is really open-ended.

 

[Moonstruck]

Oh, yes, indeed. Plenty of possibilities. I was planning on continuing along with my previously-stated intent of creating a Buddhist-Jainist culture in northern India, as a counterbalance to the primarily Brahmanic Dravidian south, hopefully eventually ending up with some sort of cultural/scientific renaissance.

Indian culture in general influencing the world at large is what I was hoping for, much in the same way western Europeans have done IOTL, but even if that's not possible, I'd like to see where this goes. I've always been a fan of the more unsteered TLs, so that's what's going to be my goal.

As for the Romans, well, I was mainly thinking that, wherever the Alans go, another "barbarian tribe" moving into Europe and messing things up yet again should be able to cause enough butterflies to mess things up in funny, creative and amusingly destructive ways.

 

[Russian]

Indian culture in general influencing the world at large is what I was hoping for, much in the same way western Europeans have done IOTL, but even if that's not possible, I'd like to see where this goes. I've always been a fan of the more unsteered TLs, so that's what's going to be my goal.

Well, what you need is a good POD.

What about this one? (See the map below)

From the first sight it looks like ASB, but if you think about it - it is quite plausible.
Some insignificant Macedonian ruler was lucky to conquer Persian Empire.
Why can't the Great Maurya Empire take it away from his successors?

Why not? You know how strong India was at this time. Think about lots and lots of war elephants
And from this on you have a lot of variants. I guess Buddhism would definitely spread till Greece...

 

[Moonstruck]

Well, what you need is a good POD.

What about this one? (See the map below)

From the first sight it looks like ASB, but if you think about it - it is quite plausible.
Some insignificant Macedonian ruler was lucky to conquer Persian Empire.
Why can't the Great Maurya Empire take it away from his successors?

Why not? You know how strong India was at this time. Think about lots and lots of war elephants
And from this on you have a lot of variants. I guess Buddhism would definitely spread till Greece...

Not going to happen. I seriously doubt the plausibility of this, and in any case, it's not at all what I was aiming for.

 

[Ganesha]

Oh, yes, indeed. Plenty of possibilities. I was planning on continuing along with my previously-stated intent of creating a Buddhist-Jainist culture in northern India, as a counterbalance to the primarily Brahmanic Dravidian south, hopefully eventually ending up with some sort of cultural/scientific renaissance.

Indian culture in general influencing the world at large is what I was hoping for, much in the same way western Europeans have done IOTL, but even if that's not possible, I'd like to see where this goes. I've always been a fan of the more unsteered TLs, so that's what's going to be my goal.

As for the Romans, well, I was mainly thinking that, wherever the Alans go, another "barbarian tribe" moving into Europe and messing things up yet again should be able to cause enough butterflies to mess things up in funny, creative and amusingly destructive ways.

Agreed on the bit about the Alans; and we are bereft of timelines about India, and especially about India being successful. I would love to see this timeline, and I'd love to help in any way possible (except actually writing it, that would be too much work ).

 

[Moonstruck]

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. I find myself constantly stopping because of sheer ignorance - I simply do not know what happened, why it did so, and how things might change. If anyone could direct me towards some decent works - or any non-wiki information at all, in some cases - on any of the following, I'd greatly appreciate it:

• Trade and diplomatic relations between India and the countries around the Red Sea and the Mediterranean.
• The Seleucid Empire, with a focus on the period after the death of Seleucus II.
• Relations between the Parthians and the Indo-Greeks/Greco-Bactrians at the turn of the second century BCE.
• The Decline of the Sassanid Empire

As you can see, this TL will likely be plagued throughout its entire length by a severe lack of Knowledge (What I'm Talking About), so I fully expect board members to point out every flaw in the most pedantic way possible, in order for me to fix 'em in due time.

 

[Daeres]

I'm in the process of learning more about the Seleucids, if you can afford to wait a few weeks I should be able to tell you much more about it with some footing.

 

[Moonstruck]

I'm in the process of learning more about the Seleucids, if you can afford to wait a few weeks I should be able to tell you much more about it with some footing.

More than happy to wait - After all, I'll first have to sketch out rough details, do some basic character write-ups, decide the narrative style, and so on and so forth. Persia - or Iran, as it might now not become known as, the word being of Sassanid origins - is crucial to the TL in the long run, if I'm not too mistaken. With the remnants of the Maurya no longer presenting as tempting an opportunity as IOTL, and thus no war stretching as far as Pataliputra ever occuring, the Greco-Bactrians might be more up to the task of repelling the Scythians, and hence also be prepared to feud a wee bit with the Parthians.

With the Parthians no longer unthreatened, they might not be able to, in the same way as IOTL, establish control over what remains of the dying Seleucid Empire. The Romans might then be able to go further east, which could lead to them over-stretching to a degree, especially when faced with increased barbarian incursions in Europe - I'll obviously need quite a bit of consultation here, what with my lacking knowledge of Roman history and all - and soon, butterflies will render the world mostly unrecognisable.

Well, except for China, but China is stupid and evil and I don't know enough about it

Oh, and the Americas. I somehow doubt they'll be affected for the next millennium.