Well (1) they were right at the limit of where the horse-steppe package could go and history shows that adapting to new packages is actually pretty hard to do. (2) I think by the time they arrived, the Chukchi were already herding reindeer. And the Chukchi were fairly capable war-fighters, so they formed a pretty decent barrier.

fasquardon

Yeah, which is why I'd be skeptical the Indo-Europeans could do what the Yakuts didn't.
 
Yeah, which is why I'd be skeptical the Indo-Europeans could do what the Yakuts didn't.

Yeah, the advantage would be that the ancestors of the Chukchi didn't have reindeer herding 3-4,000 years ago. (I think reindeer herding is only about 2,000 years old in total.) So the Chukchi would be weaker and the ecological niche for a reindeer herding group would be free.

But it would still be a hard leap to make for these IE-Siberians.

fasquardon
 
Question. Do they still have all of their domesticates including cows and sheep?

They might be able to keep sheep during a migration through Siberia... Be pretty tough though. Sheep would be high status livestock.

They might also need better boat technology - the Kolayma peninsula is harsh even for East Siberia, so the IE may need to migrate along the coast of the sea of Okhotsk and sail to Alaska from some place on the Kamchatka peninsula.

As for cows, I don't see any way they'd be able to keep them if going to the Americas via Siberia.

fasquardon
 
Even without agriculture, the fact that they'd have metalworking, reindeer, and potentially horses would give them a colossal advantage over the indigenous peoples of North America, to the point where it might be comparable to the Indo-European migrations into Europe and the displacement of local cultures there.

Although the biggest issue would be why the Yakuts didn't get past the Chukchi and other peoples at the Bering isthmus.



Those would be dwarf mammoths, so maybe comparable to Carthage and the small North African elephants they used. Still an animal that would be restricted for the elites to own and control.
That would stretch the limits of plausibility but it's just such an appealing idea.... goodness I am such an immature historian....
 
They might be able to keep sheep during a migration through Siberia... Be pretty tough though. Sheep would be high status livestock.

They might also need better boat technology - the Kolayma peninsula is harsh even for East Siberia, so the IE may need to migrate along the coast of the sea of Okhotsk and sail to Alaska from some place on the Kamchatka peninsula.

As for cows, I don't see any way they'd be able to keep them if going to the Americas via Siberia.

fasquardon
I think that they'd probably be able to bring some of their cold resistant domesticates with them. Does anyone have any idea which of the indo-european domesticates are the most cold-weather resistant?
 
I think that they'd probably be able to bring some of their cold resistant domesticates with them. Does anyone have any idea which of the indo-european domesticates are the most cold-weather resistant?

No way in hell would cattle (key part of Indo-European culture) work that far north for the long period needed to establish them in North America. Sheep, maybe horses, and reindeer. That's what you'd be working by, any of which alone could carve a significant niche amongst the American Indians.
 
No way in hell would cattle (key part of Indo-European culture) work that far north for the long period needed to establish them in North America. Sheep, maybe horses, and reindeer. That's what you'd be working by, any of which alone could carve a significant niche amongst the American Indians.
Horses not possible. The Yakuts and co/ were literally right above the steppe and still couldn't manage it. Reindeer and Horses seem promising though.

Alternatively, could steppe culture result in Indo-Europeans (and people they have areal contact with) end up trying to break the wild animals of the Canadian north, to replace horses? I mean it sounds impossible to me but "leave no stone unturned" or so they say.
 
Horses not possible. The Yakuts and co/ were literally right above the steppe and still couldn't manage it. Reindeer and Horses seem promising though.

Alternatively, could steppe culture result in Indo-Europeans (and people they have areal contact with) end up trying to break the wild animals of the Canadian north, to replace horses? I mean it sounds impossible to me but "leave no stone unturned" or so they say.

The only one that might work would be moose, and from what I get at, moose would be more of a replacement for elephants more than anything else. Too much maintenance, too much difficulty--only the elite could ever own a moose and utilise it for farming, warfare, etc. Reindeer/caribou we're already assuming these Indo-Europeans would have. I don't know of any others that would be suitable.
 
The only one that might work would be moose, and from what I get at, moose would be more of a replacement for elephants more than anything else. Too much maintenance, too much difficulty--only the elite could ever own a moose and utilise it for farming, warfare, etc. Reindeer/caribou we're already assuming these Indo-Europeans would have. I don't know of any others that would be suitable.
Why did the Siberians not have reindeer caribou OTL? What is the standing justification for the indo-europeans having them? I mean the attempted justification for them domesticating new world fauna is because it's ingrained in their culture, whereas ... it isn't in Siberian peoples' cultures?
 
Why did the Siberians not have reindeer caribou OTL? What is the standing justification for the indo-europeans having them? I mean the attempted justification for them domesticating new world fauna is because it's ingrained in their culture, whereas ... it isn't in Siberian peoples' cultures?

They did though. The Yakut, Evenki, and other Siberians had reindeer, and I'd assume these Indo-Europeans would either bring their herds with them or successfully domesticate Alaskan caribou.
 
Why did the Siberians not have reindeer caribou OTL? What is the standing justification for the indo-europeans having them? I mean the attempted justification for them domesticating new world fauna is because it's ingrained in their culture, whereas ... it isn't in Siberian peoples' cultures?

Siberia is full of reindeer herders.

I was just wondering. The Greenland Norse
Kept cattle.

Greenland when the Norse were there was waaaaaay more clement than East Siberia.

Sheep, maybe horses, and reindeer. That's what you'd be working by, any of which alone could carve a significant niche amongst the American Indians.

Sheep would be very difficult to sustain in Siberia. I think they'd pretty much become indoor livestock. Horses would be even harder to sustain - and they're bigger animals, so barns would need to be bigger too.

fasquardon
 
Is the wheel useful in the snow? I know that sleds are more useful but I want to see if it's feasible that the technology could survive a few centuries lack of necessity.
 
Is the wheel useful in the snow? I know that sleds are more useful but I want to see if it's feasible that the technology could survive a few centuries lack of necessity.

Maybe pottery wheels? I know some nomadic groups use pottery, though no idea if the IE on the steppes ever did...

fasquardon
 
Maybe pottery wheels? I know some nomadic groups use pottery, though no idea if the IE on the steppes ever did...

From "Gender and Chinese Archaeology", in a description of an Ordos (easternmost known Indo-European culture) cemetery:

The most common type of pottery found in the Maoqinggou tombs is jars. [...] While the pottery found in the Ordos region were sandy wares, most pottery of the Maoqinggou cemetery were made of fine clay and fired in high-temperature kilns.
 
From "Gender and Chinese Archaeology", in a description of an Ordos (easternmost known Indo-European culture) cemetery:

The most common type of pottery found in the Maoqinggou tombs is jars. [...] While the pottery found in the Ordos region were sandy wares, most pottery of the Maoqinggou cemetery were made of fine clay and fired in high-temperature kilns.

Given that the ancestors of the Ordos are one of the most likely groups to reach the Americas, that's very encouraging.

So maybe the IE lose the wheel for vehicles on their way through Siberia and then re-invent the chariot when they get far enough south in the Americas from their pottery wheels?

fasquardon
 
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