An Independent Confederacy assists the French in the Franco-Prussian War

Robertp6165 has a timeline on this site called Answering the Call of LaFayette: The Americans Intervene in the Franco-Prussian War. I really enjoy timelines that present larger-scale conflicts earlier in history, especially in the nineteenth century, with Robert's idea among them. But it got me thinking, and I hope he doesn't mind my weird idea amalgamation. :eek:


In Harry Turtledove's Timeline-191, the Confederates pretty much sit out the rest of the nineteenth century, annexing Mexico and beating the U.S. for a second time. I was wondering why most Confederate victory scenarios never have the Confederates get tangled up in European affairs--especially since the best POD for Confederate victory is, in my opinion, the joint Anglo-French intervention on the behalf of the Confederates. Now, I understand that the Confederacy is devastated by the war, no matter how early they acquire victory, especially Virginia. But if they win in 1862, much of their fledgling economy is still intact-and they owe an enormous debt of gratitude to Britain and France. Let's say, in four years' time, one of the Confederacy's famous generals gets elected president-a man with a firm sense of honor and duty, who continues the revitalization of the Confederate economy. Then, in 1870, war breaks out between the French and the Prussians. Envoys from Paris enter Richmond with their supplications for assistance. The Confederate president does not have much by way of a navy, but can send an expeditionary force, and sees this an opportunity to strengthen the bonds between him and the old world.

So, what if, in the Franco-Prussian War, an independent Confederacy decides to aid the French?
 
Short of military observers I doubt the Confederates would send anybody. There could be a call for volunteers, but most likely no actual Government call for sending troops overseas. Richmond won't have that sort of authority yet.
 
They could send a couple of regiments, built around a core of professional soldiers, gung ho lifer types who enjoy that sort of thing. They would be the officers and non-coms, while the privates would be boys who had been too young for the civil war, and now out looking for adventure. I don't think 5000 men is unrealistic. Now, how well they would do against the highly disciplined Prussians is another matter. But if they could be used in some sort of guerilla role, they might be quite effective. The Germans, like the English of that time, would have no clue how to deal with these tactics, given the teutonic lack of imagination. [except maybe to execute any Confeds that they captured]
And I can also see the US getting involved with Prussia, and the whole thing morphing into a Turtledovian scenario.
 

mowque

Banned
The Germans, like the English of that time, would have no clue how to deal with these tactics, given the teutonic lack of imagination. [except maybe to execute any Confeds that they captured]

1. Troll-bait?

2. Germans as un-inventive when it comes to tactics? There is a new one.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
They could send a couple of regiments, built around a core of professional soldiers, gung ho lifer types who enjoy that sort of thing. They would be the officers and non-coms, while the privates would be boys who had been too young for the civil war, and now out looking for adventure. I don't think 5000 men is unrealistic. Now, how well they would do against the highly disciplined Prussians is another matter. But if they could be used in some sort of guerilla role, they might be quite effective. The Germans, like the English of that time, would have no clue how to deal with these tactics, given the teutonic lack of imagination. [except maybe to execute any Confeds that they captured]
And I can also see the US getting involved with Prussia, and the whole thing morphing into a Turtledovian scenario.

my brain it hurt.
 
The main problem with the CS focusing in Europe is that it's weaker than the US, and the US is going to want revenge. If the CS starts really sending its cream overseas, America's going to declare war, and have a decent chance of winning this time, especially if it has more limited war aims. Something like taking just taking back Oklahoma, Texas, and maybe a bit of other territory would be doable if the CS has some soldiers tied up overseas, and from there, it's just a death by a thousand cuts. America takes a piece of CS territory here, and another peace there, and sooner or later you'll have a Second Civil War with an even more industrialized US facing a banana republic rump CS. The CS won't have the foresight to see all this, and will probably have a better more confidence in themselves than I do, but they aren't stupid.

So best way to do this is to have the US distracted by something. Which means potentially the US has decided to aid Prussia (possibly because of France's role in the Civil War), which ends up amounting to the same thing. Wait until America's home defenses start slipping, then mount a massive assault. The CS's best chance is to knock the US out of the war fast, just like the first time around.

Note that while this doesn't involve the CS fighting in Europe (unless their war finishes before the Franco-Prussian [unlikely]), it's still an extension of the same conflict.
 
Now, how well they would do against the highly disciplined Prussians is another matter. But if they could be used in some sort of guerilla role, they might be quite effective. The Germans, like the English of that time, would have no clue how to deal with these tactics, given the teutonic lack of imagination. [except maybe to execute any Confeds that they captured]
And I can also see the US getting involved with Prussia, and the whole thing morphing into a Turtledovian scenario.

Teutonic lack of imagination? They invented, among other things, General Staffs, stormtroopers, and blitzkrieg. All of these things had antedecents, but so does everything. This is on the very verge of trolling.
 
Yes, but they hadn't invented blitzkreig back in 1870. I didn't mean to insult anyone's ethnicity, I am of Teutonic descent myself. But the British didn't know what to do when the Americans started sniping at them from behind walls that April day in 1775, and I don't think the Prussians would have been able to handle an enemy force that used guerilla warfare against them either, despite Von Moltke's excellent organisation. Today is a different story, but after all, the war didn't go on for very long, so they wouldn't have had time to develop anti-guerilla tactics. Having said that, the war would have ended the way it did in OTL, a token CSA force wouldn't have changed that. And to suggest I am a troll is insulting, I have been posting on this board for some time, and I do not try to pick fights.
Teutonic lack of imagination? They invented, among other things, General Staffs, stormtroopers, and blitzkrieg. All of these things had antedecents, but so does everything. This is on the very verge of trolling.
 
Yes, but they hadn't invented blitzkreig back in 1870. I didn't mean to insult anyone's ethnicity, I am of Teutonic descent myself. But the British didn't know what to do when the Americans started sniping at them from behind walls that April day in 1775, and I don't think the Prussians would have been able to handle an enemy force that used guerilla warfare against them either, despite Von Moltke's excellent organisation. Today is a different story, but after all, the war didn't go on for very long, so they wouldn't have had time to develop anti-guerilla tactics. Having said that, the war would have ended the way it did in OTL, a token CSA force wouldn't have changed that. And to suggest I am a troll is insulting, I have been posting on this board for some time, and I do not try to pick fights.

What you said was, and I paraphrase "Owing to Germans being unimaginative, they would have had no solution available save war crimes." This is an offensive racial stereotype whether you meant it that way or not, and flamebait.

You didn't mean to troll so your hurt that I said you came close to trolling. Thing is, you did. I'm sure any Germans to see your post would have been hurt to be called a lot of murderous stiffnecks on racial grounds, and that's just a lie.

Anyway, if I'm not much mistaken, the French used guerilla tactics in the latter half of the war. Fat lot of good that did them.

I'm confused by your insistence on bringing my own country into this (It's British, by the way). You first refer to contemporary Britons, and then to the Britons of 10- years earlier. Your point is? I'll spare the lecture on how the tactical aspect of the ARW has been vastly misunderstood for when I'm sure it's necessary.

I don't see what Blitzkrieg has to do with anything. They couldn't have invented it back in 1870 without firs inventing the lorry, the tank, the radio, and the aeroplane, which is all besides the point since blitzkrieg is actually vulnerable to a well-orchestrated guerilla campaign. I was just saying that claiming germans lack military imagination is nonsese.
 
Hm, the intervention of the US could definitely throw a monkeywrench an any plans of Confederate aid . . . but what if a pacifist US president (perhaps McClellan) is in charge in Washington and doesn't want to risk an attack after his last browbeating from the CSA-France-UK triple alliance, especially after only eight or seven years after the end of the last war. That, and in OTL the US is engaged with suppressing the Comanche in Colorado, which presumably will occur in this TL as well on schedule, although I don't think it will divert a critical amount of troops (unless natives from Sequoyah are furtively fueling Amerindian discontent in the US areas of the Great Plains).
 
Yes, but they hadn't invented blitzkreig back in 1870. I didn't mean to insult anyone's ethnicity, I am of Teutonic descent myself. But the British didn't know what to do when the Americans started sniping at them from behind walls that April day in 1775, and I don't think the Prussians would have been able to handle an enemy force that used guerilla warfare against them either, despite Von Moltke's excellent organisation. Today is a different story, but after all, the war didn't go on for very long, so they wouldn't have had time to develop anti-guerilla tactics. Having said that, the war would have ended the way it did in OTL, a token CSA force wouldn't have changed that. And to suggest I am a troll is insulting, I have been posting on this board for some time, and I do not try to pick fights.

The British are Teutons? Guess I've just learned something new about myself...

Anyway, to my point...guerilla tactics would not work in the Franco-Prussian War. 1871 France is not 1770s America. The operational theatre is too small for 5,000 men to sneak behind enemy lines and not get noticed and routinely destroyed, the terrain little affords the ability to ambush or bottleneck, the ethnicity of the men would make it impossible to disguise the soldiers as local civilians for the Vietnam effect used so well in Napoleonic Spain, and they would be out of supplies in no time. A CS Corps who tried to use tactics developed for fighting the British in America would find themselves in short order being hunted down by a few battalions of experienced Prussians, who would massacre them in combat or manoeuvre them to death.
 
Hm, the intervention of the US could definitely throw a monkeywrench an any plans of Confederate aid . . . but what if a pacifist US president (perhaps McClellan) is in charge in Washington and doesn't want to risk an attack after his last browbeating from the CSA-France-UK triple alliance, especially after only eight or seven years after the end of the last war. That, and in OTL the US is engaged with suppressing the Comanche in Colorado, which presumably will occur in this TL as well on schedule, although I don't think it will divert a critical amount of troops (unless natives from Sequoyah are furtively fueling Amerindian discontent in the US areas of the Great Plains).

The main question is whether or not the CSA would be willing to risk diverting a large number of soldiers. I mean, they'd be a bit bolder with someone like McClellan as president, but honestly, if I were president of the CSA, I think I'd want to try to bluster and make it seem as if I can handle anything the USA can throw at me, at any time. Try to seem invincible, you know? And when I'm sending a large number of soldiers over to France, it's difficult to say "Haha! I have a horde of a million men right on the border. Just try it, Yankee bastards!" The problem is exacerbated because it was against American tradition to have a large standing army. Send what professional troops you have over to France, and you have nothing left in America.

No, CSA's military impact on the Franco-Prussian War is going to be negligible. I'd say the ultimate political ramifications would be much more interesting and important.
 
The British are Teutons? Guess I've just learned something new about myself...

"Teutonic" even for Germans isn't really correct, but for us it's silly. The Saxons and the Teutons were completely differant.

Anyway, to my point...guerilla tactics would not work in the Franco-Prussian War. 1871 France is not 1770s America. The operational theatre is too small for 5,000 men to sneak behind enemy lines and not get noticed and routinely destroyed, the terrain little affords the ability to ambush or bottleneck, the ethnicity of the men would make it impossible to disguise the soldiers as local civilians for the Vietnam effect used so well in Napoleonic Spain, and they would be out of supplies in no time. A CS Corps who tried to use tactics developed for fighting the British in America would find themselves in short order being hunted down by a few battalions of experienced Prussians, who would massacre them in combat or manoeuvre them to death.

Then there's the fact that the Prussians aren't trying to hold down France. The generals want to take Alsace and go home, Bismarck wants to just go home. The Germans can do what they pretty much did OTL: sit on the strategic centres of the north and west, not bother much about guerillas, and wait for the French to give up on Alsace.
 
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