An Imperial Union of Japan and the Netherlands

Even though I love the idea, it will be hard. Your POD is before the idea of European cultural superiority, so that is not a problem (although it would have been in the 19th century). But a bigger problem is religeous. In the 17th century protestants didn't even marry catholics (and vice versa), let alone heathens (ok, in the eyes of the protestants catholics were as bad, or even worse as heathens). So to solve this problem you need to make Japan, or at least the royal family, christian. Another solution might be to delay any royal marriages until later, probably not earlier than the 19th century, when marrying non-christians wouldn't be looked on as bad, but you need a very big change in how people think. I guess only now in the twentyfirst century people won't mind their royal family marrying a non-christian (much). I suggest some other royal marriages a bit earlier to non-christians, first with Muslims or Jews (whose religion is a lot closer to christianity) and later to other religions. For example France marrying into the Ottoman empire, or the Brittish into one of the Mughal families or something like that.


Another problem is the Dutch republic, but that can be solved. If you use a early POD the Netherlands can easily become a monarchy, something every stadholder tried BTW, so you could even have one of them succeed in it.

Another important problem is the distance. The Netherlands-Japan is a long way. You can't have a king/emperor rule both countries at the same time, they are just to far from each other.

These are the problems I see from the Dutch spoint of view; there are no doubt lots of problems from the Japanese Point of view I am not aware of. A Japanese-Dutch personal union is hard, if not impossible. I think the easiest way is a future timeline in which Amalia the oldest of the Dutch princesses falls in love with the male heir to the throne in Japan and marry (although I believe that male heir must yet be born), or possibly even farther into the future with the children of Amalia (who is only 6 btw).
 
There's an important qualifier there. The Dutch helped the Japanese put down a major Catholic rebellion. It was the Satsuma Rebellion, IIRC (don't quite remember off the top of my head). The protestant Dutch were already enemies of the Catholics. If it had been a protestant rebellion, the Dutch wouldn't have been so eager to supply arms to the Japanese.

since the Dutch also supplied arms to the spanish during the 80 years war (when spain was the big bad enemy), i don't think religion would be an issue. as the Dutch saying goes: Bussiness is Bussiness.

and on the subject of Royal Marriage, i read somewhere that the Declining Byzantine Empire would marry off its princesses to muslim rulers as a sort of 'don't kill us' bribe. don't know the truth in that, but it seems that there wasn't such a big stigma. and if it would get the Dutch a mayor advantage in trade, then a pre 1800s marriage between a daughter of the Stadtholder and the Japanese heir might even be possible

though the Japanese might not be to pleased. It could help the Dutch in opening up and modernising Japan Earlier
 
since the Dutch also supplied arms to the spanish during the 80 years war (when spain was the big bad enemy), i don't think religion would be an issue. as the Dutch saying goes: Bussiness is Bussiness.

and on the subject of Royal Marriage, i read somewhere that the Declining Byzantine Empire would marry off its princesses to muslim rulers as a sort of 'don't kill us' bribe. don't know the truth in that, but it seems that there wasn't such a big stigma. and if it would get the Dutch a mayor advantage in trade, then a pre 1800s marriage between a daughter of the Stadtholder and the Japanese heir might even be possible

though the Japanese might not be to pleased. It could help the Dutch in opening up and modernising Japan Earlier

My problem was less on the Dutch side, more on the Japanese side. They were pretty much the most fucking arrogant culture on the planet. They believed that they were God's chosen people living in God's land (not the Christian god, of course, but the Yamato equivalents). Everyone else was a barbarian. To put it in western terms, it's sort of like the pope declaring that the Trinity is unbiblical. The superiority of the Japanese people over Europeans (who they called "Southern Barbarians"--Portuguese and Spanish and "Eastern Barbarians"--Dutch) was taken as an indisputable fact. It was one thing for the random Japanese girl to marry a European sailor here and there, it's quite another for a member of the royal family, the family closest to the gods, to marry such a barbarous scum.

What impetus would the Dutch have to marry off the heir to the Japanese? It's one thing to marry off some minor member of the royal family to get familiar bonds, but the heir is a different matter. Why waste the prime candidate for a good political marriage on a nation halfway across the world for some trade benefits (when they already have a monopoly on trade, presumably)?

I could sort of see it as something like a daughter of a hereditary Dutch monarch marrying a fifth son of the Japanese emperor or something. And then some sort of cataclysm happens in both countries simultaneously, leading to both members of the couple unexpectedly gaining the title for their respective country. But, even then, they'd probably split the titles amongst their children for their next generation.
 
that cataclysm idea is actually a pretty good one, one i didn't think off.

basically the wedding can take place in the 19th century (barring major butterflies) when the Netherlands is a monarchy, and is trying to get Japan to open up peacefully, the marriage is a good way to ease that transition.

another slightly more ASB idea i had was, during the christian uprising in Japan, to have the VOC raise an army in Formosa (taiwan), beat off the chinese invasion, then use the army to aid the Emperor against the rebels directly.

then convince the emperor to make a VOC official, daimyo (that was the japanese noble title right) of Nagasaki and some surrounding lands, to keep the catholics in check.

this allows for mutual respect to grow over the years. With the VOC loyally supporting the emperor in whatever he gets up to, while milking the ability to send more merchant ships into Nagasaki then possible with just Dejima

edit: and the Dutch to use ronin as auxilliary cavalry on European battlefields is just made of awesome
 
If you want secularism in your monarchy then your Personal Union's going to have to wait so long it could potentially not be formed by the year 2000.

I meant secular states, as in what Japan, Britain, the Netherlands are today, that is while for instance the British Monarch holds religious titles/roles the United Kingdom itself is a secular nation.


The problem with this is you need really close cultural relations with the Dutch to even contemplate a union between the Japanese and Dutch royal families. The Japanese just culturally were really opposed to foreigners. Even Christian Japanese weren't really pro-European.

Which is why the PoD is likely going to be between 1590-1610, to allow the relations to grow over centuries.

As for pro-Europe/pro-foreigner, well they don't have to like Europe, just the Dutch, which the way I'm thinking is likely what would happen, in both nations actually.

I'd say this is a little more reasonable. Still pretty difficult to get a huge number of Japanese to settle in the Netherlands, though.

I was'nt thinking it'd be a massive, probably 20% (Japanese and Japanese descended) of the population by the mid-19th century given immigration AND natural population growth.


But a bigger problem is religeous. In the 17th century protestants didn't even marry catholics (and vice versa), let alone heathens (ok, in the eyes of the protestants catholics were as bad, or even worse as heathens). So to solve this problem you need to make Japan, or at least the royal family, christian. Another solution might be to delay any royal marriages until later, probably not earlier than the 19th century, when marrying non-christians wouldn't be looked on as bad.

I had'nt intended the Personal Union to be until some time between 1820-1860.


Another problem is the Dutch republic, but that can be solved. If you use a early POD the Netherlands can easily become a monarchy, something every stadholder tried BTW, so you could even have one of them succeed in it.

Indeed, actually what would be an interesting idea (though unlikely, even in this scenario) is the Dutch Republic to evolve into something like the OTL UAE, that is a Federation whos individual states are normal Monarchies while the Federal state is an elective Monarchy.


Another important problem is the distance. The Netherlands-Japan is a long way. You can't have a king/emperor rule both countries at the same time, they are just to far from each other.

Since the Union would be in the 19th century this would'nt be as much an issue as in previous times, but yes it could be an issue.

This of course I can see going two ways until travel becomes fast enough that it only takes at most a week to travel between the two;

1. The Monarch spends his/her time more or less equally in each country, perhaps spending two years in Japan, then spending the next to in the Netherlands.
2. The Monarch's wife/husband being a Viceroy, acting in their place, though I think with this one it'd need to be accepted, atleast in the Court that the Monarch's are'nt monogamous.
 
Which is why the PoD is likely going to be between 1590-1610, to allow the relations to grow over centuries.

I'm still just unconvinced the Netherlands would be able to make that sort of impact to Japanese culture, even giving a long period of time. The Japanese (and really Asians in general) tend to be extremely xenophobic and resist all foreign influence, except in extreme cases (they started to open up when Europe forced spheres of influence/Perry's black fleet, obviously Japan changed a lot after WW2). Japan's not just going to resist Dutch culture. They're going to resist the Netherlands moving them away from that resistance.

It was actually Japanese law for ~150-200 years that no Japanese citizen could leave Japan, and no foreigner (or just European?) could enter it. This is something you could butterfly away pretty easily, I'm just pointing to it as an example of how reclusive they were.

As for pro-Europe/pro-foreigner, well they don't have to like Europe, just the Dutch, which the way I'm thinking is likely what would happen, in both nations actually.

The Dutch are still foreigners. ;)




Don't get me wrong, I think this would be an interesting timeline. I'm just trying to be realistic, and I think it'd take a lot of handwaving.
 
I'm still just unconvinced the Netherlands would be able to make that sort of impact to Japanese culture, even giving a long period of time.

I'm sort of thinking it'd be both ways, since it's all still preliminary I'm not sure, though it'd be interesting having a situation where both cultures influence each other eventually forming a new shared hybrid culture.


It was actually Japanese law for ~150-200 years that no Japanese citizen could leave Japan, and no foreigner (or just European?) could enter it. This is something you could butterfly away pretty easily, I'm just pointing to it as an example of how reclusive they were.

The Sakoku policy really was more than anything Japan trying to rid itself of Spanish and Portuguese influence more than it was anti-everybody else.
I'm actually thinking of retaining it, albeit in a different form.

The Dutch are still foreigners. ;)

True, but given time, and especially if they're the only ones they're in major contact with constantly over time the 'Foreignness' would dissipate, but yes that is an issue initially.


Don't get me wrong, I think this would be an interesting timeline. I'm just trying to be realistic, and I think it'd take a lot of handwaving.

Oh I realize it'll be difficult, but if people did'nt do things because they were hard we'd have gone extinct tens of thousands of years ago.
 
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