An Hellenistic state until today.

Is possible a land in which the heritage of the hellenistic culture and tradition is remained barely intact,with the Olympics Gods,customs,theatre,arts,books?
Maybe a inacessible territory in Bactrian mountains,or a island in Indian ocean colonized by Ptolemaics and remained isolated,without conqueorors Christians or islamics?
I don't speak by a "land that time forgot",but by a ethnic culture that have a greek heritage in the same way that,for exemple,modern India have a ancient India heritage.
 
As a state no. As a society, maybe. such state would sooner or later clash with one of the monotheist civilizations. If it would exist in some remote parts of the world outside of main "happenings" it would fall behind both technologically and military and would then be wiped out/annexed at lesiure (being in remote area it would alos have low population and being outside trade routes also not wealthy).

As a society it could have survived, but would depend on tolerance of people ruling them.
 

DusanUros

Banned
Is possible a land in which the heritage of the hellenistic culture and tradition is remained barely intact,with the Olympics Gods,customs,theatre,arts,books?
Maybe a inacessible territory in Bactrian mountains,or a island in Indian ocean colonized by Ptolemaics and remained isolated,without conqueorors Christians or islamics?
I don't speak by a "land that time forgot",but by a ethnic culture that have a greek heritage in the same way that,for exemple,modern India have a ancient India heritage.

Hellooooo, Modern Greek state maybe?
 
You need to basically pull an Arab invasion and make sure the known world is prompty Hellenized so I say a POD with 323 BC is best.
 

DusanUros

Banned
last time I checked Greeks were orthodox Christians, not polytheists (though granted police still uses phalanx-like formations)

Thats the ONLY difference between ancient and modern Greeks, i assure you. That and some linguistic differences. Their customs pretty much adapted into orthodox christianity, including some awesome lamb sacrifices during easter and boiled cereal in funerals. I think i might actually have seen people throwing coins at the coffin, though that might not be a widespread custom. In any case, few things have changed.
 
Like before, to maintain ancient Hellenistic religion, you'll need to eliminate Christianity. Its doubtful that one could have it both ways. The answer to Christianity's (Trinitarianism) success was its hierarchal organization of full-time members (Ekklesia or Church), and its tendency to copy and incorporate the traditions and rituals of its opposition.

If the POD is set in the late Third or early Fourth Century Rome, you would obviously need to prevent the ascension of Constantine from becoming Augustus in the west. Augustus saw in the Christians a body of fanatics that would be beholden to and willing to serve anyone whom not only ceased the states persecution against them, but granted them exceptional priveliges. Also, Constantine's mother Helena, and his sister Constantia, were Christians long before he thought of converting himself.

Another POD could be to somehow prevent the decline of the Hellenistic kingdoms of the east, especially perhaps the Seleucid Empire and Ptolemaic Egypt. With Judea and the other Jewish communities across the eastern Mediterranean under different management, there is little to suggest that any Jewish sect could form over a politically divided region. In Seleucia at least, a new form of Zoroastrianism would perhaps have a better chance of of being accepted than a Judiac-derived sect.

In either case, one might need to think about developing an ecumenical-style Pagan clerical organization, incorporated into the administrative framework of the state. Something complete with hierarchy, a defined central ideology for its purpose, and scriptured theology. An Ecclesia of the Olympians.
 
As a state no. As a society, maybe. such state would sooner or later clash with one of the monotheist civilizations. If it would exist in some remote parts of the world outside of main "happenings" it would fall behind both technologically and military and would then be wiped out/annexed at lesiure (being in remote area it would alos have low population and being outside trade routes also not wealthy).

Look at India.

In OTL, Menander of Bactria conquered a lot of Northwest India. He went farther than Alexander. Alexander had turned back at Beas, without reaching Sutlej. Menander held Mathura, on Yamuna closer to Agra than Delhi, so how far did he go?

In 2nd century BC, Scythians invaded Bactria and wiped out Greco-Bactrians. Indo-Greeks held out at first. But in 1st century BC, the Scythians invaded India, too. Last king of Greeks was overthrown by Scyths in Sialkot about 10 AD.

Christianity did spread East a bit after 1st...5th century. There were Malabar Christians in South India, and Nestorians in Central and East Asia. But they were never so numerous and prevalent as to wipe out polytheism.

Islam invaded in 12th century. But polytheistic Hindus did keep resisting. Rajput states in Himachal Pradesh, Nepal, Rajasthan fought back. They often acknowledged overlordship of Sultanate of Delhi and Great Moguls, but many of them resisted outright annexation. And many Hindus kept their polytheism under the persecuting government of Mohammedan rulers.

Yes, the hill princes were somewhat poor, isolated and backwards. Yet they adopted warfare with cavalry and firearms, and built forts.

Now make a PoD somewhere in 2nd century BC. Menander is a bit more successful.

The result being that the Sakas do not conquer and wipe out all Indo-Greek states. Kashmir and Himachal Pradesh stay Greek although the plains of Punjab fall.

A succession of Greek kings and republics then rule the area through 1st millennium AD. Far from Mediterranean. There are still Hindus, and Buddhism is common (since Menander, as per OTL), but the Olympian pantheon is still worshipped, Greek temples built, and books of Greek philosophy are written (alongside books in Greek on Mahayana philosophy).

In 13th century, Sultanate of Delhi invades. Again, the Greeks resist wiping out (as did Rajput Hindus in OTL).

With the result that in the end of 18th century, the British East India Company officials, coming from Europe with their education in classical Greek language, mythology and literature, go and find Greeks who (unlike the Balkan Greeks under Turkish yoke who have been Orthodox for 1400 years) do and always have observed classical Greek religion and literature and are counting towards, say, 500th Kashmiric Games.

What will the Philhellenes like Lord Byron do?
 
Some research in the backgrounds of Hinduism, Buddhism and Hellenic Polytheism would be needed to go all the way into permanently fusing them into a mono-culture. The Indo-Greek kings had converted to Buddhism, but their Gods and heroes were still incorporated into the native cosmology. It is even believed that the Mahayana Buddhist movement coincided with the Hellenistic presence in north-west India. The theological background of the monastic Buddhist Sangha being infused with Hellenistic philosophy and myths. The religion of the western Hellenes did not possess permanent priesthoods, nor did they have a central doctrine. In India and Bactria they had come very close to achieving that.
 
Sa'id,

I've got some quibbles with it, like the butterflies a surviving Hellenistic pagan state would have. If Islam comes per OTL (it may not, although a surviving Indo-Greek state might not affect Arabia to the point it butterflies away Mohammed or someone like him), we might end up with a Sultanate of Delhi, but on the other hand, wouldn't a Greek state in Kashmir be fairly close to the invasion routes from the north and west?

They might fall to the Arabic wave well before Delhi does, unless they form a very good defensible position (the Maronites in OTL Lebanon at one point extorted money from the Caliphate because they were in a defensible spot and it would be cheaper to bribe them).

And assuming they can survive the initial Arabic invasion, there's still the Mongols and the Turks to deal with later.

However, the notion of medieval Christian Europeans seeking out "Prester John" and finding a bunch of worshippers of Zeus would be absolutely hilarious.

Here's another thought: The Nestorian Christians evangelizing in Central Asia might be interested in a Greek-speaking civilization, since their antecedents were in the Greek East.
 
Who even says that these hypothetical Indo-Greeks would still be using the Greek language? The majority of the population remained speaking their Indian tounges and only a small elite ever spoke Greek.
 
Is possible a land in which the heritage of the hellenistic culture and tradition is remained barely intact,with the Olympics Gods,customs,theatre,arts,books?
Maybe a inacessible territory in Bactrian mountains,or a island in Indian ocean colonized by Ptolemaics and remained isolated,without conqueorors Christians or islamics?
I don't speak by a "land that time forgot",but by a ethnic culture that have a greek heritage in the same way that,for exemple,modern India have a ancient India heritage.

No, not really. The OTL Hellenistic states all proved unwilling and unable to adapt to stronger rival societies in no small part because the Hellenes were a bunch of solipsistic idiots who ignored anything and everything outside their cultural sphere. Hence the history of Hellenism consisting mostly of defeats by outside powers while the Hellenistic states themselves warred amongst each other.
 
No, not really. The OTL Hellenistic states all proved unwilling and unable to adapt to stronger rival societies in no small part because the Hellenes were a bunch of solipsistic idiots who ignored anything and everything outside their cultural sphere. Hence the history of Hellenism consisting mostly of defeats by outside powers while the Hellenistic states themselves warred amongst each other.

Its not that simple. The Seleucids and Bactrians were able to adapted to the armoured Cataphracts and horse-archers (or hire them) of the Iranian Steppe tribes, and along with the Macedonians, Pergamanese and Ptolemies, were making the steady transition from Phalanx warfare to the use of more versatile Thurophoroi infantry. As for culture, they readily adapted the traits of Egyptian, Persian, Babylonian, and Indian culture throughout the Hellenistic period, with the Indo-Greeks even converting to Buddhism. The problem was that the two most powerful Diadochi states, the Seleucids and the Ptolemies were frequently at war with one another, while Macedonia was forever trying to assert control over Greece, even while the population bases of both were depleted through both warfare and the emigrations of the people toard the more prosperous Syrian and Egyptian realms. And for this reason, Macedonia and Epirus were becoming more dependent on mercenaries.

The Seleucids moving their capital to Antioch in western Syria, to deal with their than more powerful foes in Egypt and Lysimachia might have been a bad idea in the long-term, making it ultimately difficult to deal with at first rebellious eastern satraps, and the later Parni confederation (Parthians).
 
Top