An Examination of Extra-Universal Systems of Government

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Ephraim Ben Raphael, May 19, 2011.

  1. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Dec 26, 2016

    I am stunned that the Dutch, a tiny nation, could role over all of the world well into the 21st century.
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  2. Earthallias Who TF keeps liking but not replying?

    Jun 30, 2017
    To be fair Britain (sans the other kingdoms) is about half the size of a US state and they did it
  3. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Dec 26, 2016
    Yes, but that was because they faced populations who were technologically backward. One of the reasons why colonialism faded was because it was clear native populations could take up those same weapons, and greatly resist colonial subjugation. Even Portugal gave up the fight by the 1970s.

    I would assume the Dutch empire would gradually fade away in the late 20th century, Britain's did.
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  4. rvbomally Russian Hacker

    Dec 13, 2008
    National Socialist States of North America

    San Francisco has not been a country under occupation since 1964, but the marks of the Japanese presence are still present. Military checkpoints, particularly around major tourist destinations, are still manned, but by Americans. Road signs and markers for historical sites – such as the landing site of the Emperor Showa after the end of the American War – are still in Japanese and English, although this requirement is by the law of the ostensibly-independent Pacific States of America, not the edicts of the Imperial Japanese Army. To show this, signs must also display Spanish, a major language since the major migrations of the 1970s. The directive is part of the Pacific States’ ongoing effort to appear as the true heir of the multicultural and free United States, in stark contrast to its eastern neighbor. Chinese and German are excluded from government signs, but are still visible on the storefronts of Chinatown and by the German embassy, respectively.

    It is at a bookstore by the German embassy that I met my contact. Frederick Eaton, a former Lieutenant General in the North American Defense Forces, informed me beforehand that he only felt safe near the embassy. “The Easties” – I noted that he adopted the Pacific States’ nickname for their Eastern neighbors – “aren’t dumb enough to kill someone near the German embassy. The Germans would react to that move with extreme prejudice.”

    Mr. Eaton greeted me with a handshake, and told me that he took the liberty of buying me a drink from the nearby café. I noticed a heavily-used copy of Hobbes’ Leviathan on the table.

    “Nice to finally meet face to face, Mr. Chana,” he told me. “So, how is this ‘diverse and vibrant melting pot’ treating you?”

    I began to answer with my visit to Chinatown, but I noticed Eaton rolling his eyes and stopped. He then leaned in with a low whisper.

    “Of course. What a wonderful mess the Semites have made of this place, with the Orientals’ blessing. The Japs may say they’re cooperating with the Reich’s deportation policies, but everyone knows the West is crawling with them.”

    Fortunately for my sanity, Eaton stopped himself. On the bright side, his impromptu screed gave me an opportunity to ask the questions I wanted.

    “So you are still a Nazi?”

    “National Socialist,” Eaton interjected. “Not card-carrying. The NSAWP” – the National Socialist American Workers’ Party – “revoked my membership during the purge. But getting blindsided by a group of jackals isn’t a reason for me to stop denying the obvious truth. If anything, my experience here has only proved the obvious truths of national socialism. This country’s teetering on the cliff of a race war, one the European-Americans here will probably lose.”

    Wasn’t that exactly what the futurists in the East are saying? Eaton answered quickly.

    “They’re not wrong. Their problem is that they can’t wait for it to happen.”

    The National Socialist States of North America trace their origins to the defeat of the United States and United Kingdom to the Axis powers of Germany, Japan, and Italy. The territories of the United States and Canada were divided between the Germans, Japanese and Italians, with a neutral zone between East and West. The German and Italian sectors were later fused into the independent NSSNA, and the Japanese sector was formed into the Pacific States of America. In the NSSNA, the National Socialist American Workers’ Party – an ostensibly-independent branch of the Nazi Party in Germany – was given supreme authority over a fascist totalitarian state modeled on Germany.

    I asked Eaton what he thought the key differences were between “his interpretation” of Nazism and that of the futurists.

    “National Socialism is about preserving the tradition of a people. Anyone can be a National Socialist, even Semites, if their racial consciousness didn’t drive them to subvert other cultures. It is fundamentally about preserving one’s family, one’s race, one’s way of life. In the American context, it mean having a European-descended ethnostate rooted in Western principles and traditions, such as Christianity.”

    Although closely tied to Germany, the National Socialist States became more independent after the death of Fritz Kuhn, the first Supreme Marshal of the country. While Kuhn was dependent on German support, his successor – George Lincoln Rockwell – wanted to give Nazism in America a distinctly American flavor. Rockwell built up the idea of Nazism being the natural conclusion of America’s founding principles. This ended with the Coup of 1986 and the rise of Randall Albani.

    “Some people, especially idiot talking heads here, think that the East is “radicalizing.” Or that what’s going on over there is just the next step in National Socialism. The futurists aren’t National Socialists. Not true fascists. A true National Socialist values tradition, he values life. Any destruction or killing is done in the service of traditions and the life of one’s people. We do these things with a heavy heart. We know they’re crimes. The futurists are a death cult. They get off to death. They’ll destroy traditions, they’ll kill, if it means getting a blank slate. They want to burn the world and everyone on it, so they can build their idea of a utopia. It’s downright Bolshevist.”

    But what did that change mean for policy changes? I made it clear to Eaton that I saw little difference between the repression and militarism of the National Socialist States prior to the futurist coup.

    “That’s…naïve at best, if I’m going to be honest. Things are much worse since the futurists have taken over, and it’s not only for reasons of ideology. Most important to people here is the military buildups. The futurists believe that a “pure world” can only be built from the ashes of the old one. There are radical German National Socialists who use similar rhetoric, but the futurists, they mean nuclear annihilation. They believe that America is, at its core, too liberal and too Christian to be “properly” National Socialist, and they’re willing to burn the country and the whole world so they can start over.”

    “To get that, they’ve been building up the military, particularly the nuclear arsenal. The East now has the third largest army in the world, behind only the Japanese and the Germans. The Germans didn’t appreciate this at all, so they cut the Easties off. But by then, it’s too late. The East was too powerful to pacify with force. Back during the Rockwell days, we estimated that we’d take over the Pacific States in a matter of weeks, before any Germans ever showed up to help. There’s no way Germany can stop the East now. Hell, that would only give them the war they want.”

    If the futurists were so eager to end the world, why didn’t they start a nuclear war already? Eaton laughed at the question.

    “The cowards think they’re too weak. They still believe they’ll lose a nuclear war, as if there were such a thing as winning it. The futurists think that if they’re not around to bring it about, ‘true’ National Socialism will never happen, so they have to survive the war.”

    The Coup of 1986 was orchestrated by Randall Albani, Secretary of the Department of State Security and an acolyte of the radical “Ultra-National Socialist” movement pioneered by Reinhard Heydrich.

    What other policies was the East pursuing that Eaton thought was beyond the pale?

    “The futurists are very impatient, so they’re already implementing their policies of burning down the old. They started with crackdowns, of course. Getting rid of any Party members who didn’t go along with their program, along with their families, that was step one. Then, they implemented their Year Zero program. They destroyed the physical remains of American history. The Liberty Bell, the Statue of Liberty – there were even plans to launch missiles at Mount Rushmore in the Rocky Mountain States before I had to flee. All of those sites were replaced with Party monuments.”

    Mr. Eaton’s tone of voice changed, and I detected rage in his eyes.

    “Then, they went after Christianity. They demolished churches, or replaced them with ‘Party centers.’ At first, this was completely secular, but then Albani started replacing them with temples. First to the Divine Odin, and then to Hitler. According to some contacts I have still working in the Party, he wants to extend the privilege to his father. The shit only wants his dad to be a god so he can be the son of a god.”

    Eaton shook his head. His face contorted into a scowl.

    “America is a Christian nation. The Founders were Christians, or at least they believed in a moral god. Christianity is foundational to America, foundational to the West as a whole. It is core to my people’s identity. And Albani thinks he can throw it all out and replace it with some scheme he cooked up in his head?”

    Mr. Eaton finished his coffee leaned in closer to me.

    “Listen, Mr. Chana. I served in the Defense Force for forty-one years. I was willing to go along with Albani at first, but when he started rounding up clergy for ‘opposing the state,’ I knew things were going south. So I fled. And now I’m here, in my own personal Babylonian Captivity. I just hope someone is brave enough to take down that madman. But maybe they’re all dead.”

    To get a counterargument, I wrote to the embassy of the National Socialist States in Mexico for an interview with a representative. I was denied an audience, but surprisingly the embassy staff gave me a statement.

    “While the National Socialist States of North America will use every measure necessary to defend itself and its people from enemies foreign and domestic, the policy of the Party and the state has always been to achieve its objectives by peaceful means. The National Socialist States of North America is dedicated to the foundation of the New Order by any means necessary. Unfortunately, due to the inherently corrupt nature of America’s founding, this work requires extreme measures and unending dedication from every American. Former Lieutenant General Frederick Eaton is a traitor, and was to be charged with numerous counts of criminal corruption had he not fled justice.”

  5. President Eternal Liberal American

    May 4, 2017
    Roosevelt Island, New York
    So, this is like a next generation Man in the High Castle scenario? Interesting.
    suul'ken likes this.
  6. rvbomally Russian Hacker

    Dec 13, 2008
    It's based on @Kevin R.'s post on American futurism and the Jahr Null thing that happened in High Castle. I thought it fit, and it would be even more perverse if that sort of destruction was done at the behest of Americans and not their German leaders.
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  7. 245 Well-Known Member

    Mar 7, 2015
    you know its bad when even the Germans and fascist hate them with fury.
    President Eternal likes this.
  8. Mindtraveller Eager Explorer of Alternate Realities

    Mar 4, 2015
    The gap between timelines
    That was fast. Only a few days between inspiration and implementation.
  9. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Dec 26, 2016
    To what extent does Japanese America have independence: is it like the Marshall Islands, which is nominally independent but tied to US foreign interests?

    And does Japanese paternalism still reign over this land?

    Has ITTL Japan actually have a prospering and open community of Jews, having decided to stick a craw at the Nazis, or is Eaton just talking conspiracy nonsense?

    Is this Nazi talk, or does Japanese America have serious racial tensions?[/QUOTE]

    Wasn't Hitler openly disdainful of Christianity.

    The Nazis have learned that blowback is a bitch: their groom dog has broken free from its leash.

    If the futurists were so eager to end the world, why didn’t they start a nuclear war already? Eaton laughed at the question.

    That Eaton guy is what I imagine an American Nazi would be: unrepentantly vicious and racist, completely lacking self-awareness, but yet having enough standards and nuance to be a human being.
  10. Ephraim Ben Raphael Super Writer Extraordinaire

    Oct 5, 2009
    Somewhere in the Khazar Empire
    I've long mused a scenario set in the 2000's of an Axis-Victory world in which a new World Jewish Congress- reconstituted for the first time in 60 years- is meeting somewhere in the GEACPS because the Japanese DGAF about Jews, to discuss the state of the global Jewish community.
  11. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Dec 26, 2016
    After 60 years, where would there be a Jewish community of any substance in the world?
  12. krinsbez Well-Known Member

    Sep 1, 2009
    Me, I've mused about an Axis Victory scenario where the Madagaskar Plan was carried out, survived a subsequent Nazis VS Japanese nuclear war, and became a great power in the aftermath.

    Granted, what it's like isn't very solid, asides from having stolen a lot of Nazi iconography.

    I also have even vaguer ideas about some kind of Sino-Jewish state based in Shanghai.

    (and yes, that's all I have for either of them)

    Tens of thousands of Jews fled to Shanghai IOTL, and the Japanese had no interest in doing anything to them, despite German pressure.
  13. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Dec 26, 2016
    I am putting that in the Nazi victory I am writing on.

    But could that community alone revive Jewry?
  14. rvbomally Russian Hacker

    Dec 13, 2008
    De jure independent, like Manchukuo.


    Conspiracy nonsense. There are almost no Jews left in the Pacific States, because they believed it was not safe. Too close to the Nazi world. Of course, Eaton (and the National Socialist States) believe that Jews control the Pacific States government.

    Yes, but not for the reasons Eaton believes. The Japanese have instilled their own form of unofficial racial hierarchy that still exists, and favors the Japanese diaspora enormously. This leads to tensions, as one could expect. But it isn’t on the verge of a race war.

    Yes, and Germany goes on with the neo-paganism stuff. But Rockwell decided to go for the different tactic of aligning it with Christianity to build Nazism’s legitimacy in America.

    Part of what inspired me was the Sino-Soviet split and North Korea.

    The reason I chose an unrepentant Nazi American as the subject for this is because it goes further to show how crazy the futurists are. Having a regular person criticize futurist Nazism would end up sounding very bland. But if another Nazi, who hasn’t rejected the ideology, thinks that the futurists are out there, it provides a more interesting contrast. It also shows how monstrous the futurists are.
  15. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Dec 26, 2016
    Officially, power resides in the Japanese American Congress. Unofficially, all decisions are made in the Japanese Embassy two blocks away.

    Kind of like OTL France's relationship with its former colonies?

    Where would Jews go ITTL?

    So it is like OTL Atlanta before the 1960s: minorities can prosper de jure, but de facto they still got to bow before the racial hierarchy.

    Is there, like, a nascent civil rights movement ITTL?

    Would ITTL American Christianity also include blood libels?

    Yeah. That Chana guy is probably annoyed that his greatest ally is an unabashed supremacist.

    It is truly depressing that in such a world, the people who raped Nanking are the least evil superpower.
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  16. Grand Prince Paul II. Xenophobic Russian Agent, pro-Europa

    Dec 6, 2006
    Spaßrepublik, EuroReich, Western Eurasia
    Why are former western Canada/Washington state separated from the PSA?
  17. rvbomally Russian Hacker

    Dec 13, 2008
    More or less.

    All over the Japanese Empire.

    No. For all its talk of being the liberal alternative, the Pacific States does not look kindly on political agitation.

    Christian teachings would be modified to accentuate such things.

    They aren’t “allies,” Eaton was just too good an interview subject to pass up. He was a man who was in the regime and willing to talk critically of it.
  18. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

    Aug 19, 2016
    Someone's been reading too much on The New Order: The Last Days of Europe.
  19. krinsbez Well-Known Member

    Sep 1, 2009
    Well, that's a compliment.:cool:

    The Nazis aren't gonna get all of them in their territory, so...yeah?
  20. xsampa Well-Known Member

    Mar 23, 2014
    Another fascist US, albeit on even more radical principles than Germany! How do the Japanese view Hispanics, btw, since they permit migration from Latin America into the PSA?
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