An Examination of Extra-Universal Systems of Government

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Ephraim Ben Raphael, May 19, 2011.

  1. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    I considered a democracy that uses civics aptitude tests and other means to restrict voting to the “intelligentsia.” Conrary to how it is usually portrayed, it doesn’t actually cement one side in perpetual power, but rather it keeps the elites on both sides fighting against one another while each conspiring to expand the franchise to ensure only *their* “useful idiots” get the vote.
     
  2. KuboCaskett Resident Japanophile

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    I wonder if "world governments" can count as entries for this? I have this idea about "one" formed from a more "united" league of nations (mainly consisting of the European countries plus the British commonwealth) that is at odds with a Russian Empire and the USA in the early 21st century.
     
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  3. Earthallias Who TF keeps liking but not replying?

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    Technically there was one, but it was less about that and more one of the nations that weren't apart of it, namely North Korea
     
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  4. Ernak Homo Sapiens Novi

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    How plausible for a surviving Beiyang China to occur. Say if the warlords were able to unite into one state, albeit a confederation. Would that be possible and if so how would it occur?
     
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  5. Admiral A. Kolchak Supreme Leader

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    I think it’s a matter not of uniting them, but rather keeping them united. Until 1919 everyone was content with taking orders, even if only nominally, from Beiyang. The “nominally” part comes in when Beiyang does something the warlords don’t like; restoring the empire for instance.
    Obviously this arrangement is unsustainable in the long term. A government made up of warlords coalitions is an intriguing idea, but we can see that this didn’t work in 1919, and failed again in 1923, and again in 1925, and again in 1930, and the aftereffects of that one lingered on until the Communist takeover.
    Here’s how it goes. In 1919 some of the warlords got fed up with Duan not standing up to the Japanese, which really didn’t mesh well with what these particular warlords stood for. So a new potential leader, Cao Kun, stepped up to offer his ideas of how the government should be run. Duan was overturned, but Cao’s authority only lasted a couple of years before the same thing happened.

    In 1930 Chiang Kai-Shek was opposed by the warlords who had previously flocked to his cause. They opposed his centralist policies, and his implementing them with his consolidated government power base in Nanking. So they played another round of knock off the leader. This time Chiang won, but his victory spelled an end to the coalition arrangement. Zhang’s Fengtian Clique could still match Chiang’s power but they were spread too thin and on their way out.

    So a Beiyang China system as per OTL always results in a game of “knock off the leader”. If the leader wins, the system fails. If he loses, the new up and coming leader will have to deal with the same problems of his predecessor down the road.
    I believe the solution here is to try and get some kind of official, constitutional system where the leader is chosen by his subordinates. This way the components of the system can check it without undermining things. A leader can abuse his power only so much before being simply replaced. The main risk is that factions can grow more powerful behind the scenes and might split off from the government, but this is a move recommended against because you are splitting away from the system that gives you the power you are rebelling to obtain.

    Disclaimer: I’m kind of tired right now so this monologue might be a bit unintelligible. My reply ended up being a lot longer than I first intended.
     
  6. Miranda Brawner Trans Woman Donor

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    Savannah, Georgia, USA
    Here are some ideas for wacky ideologies that I've been thinking about. Let me know which of them, if any, you would like to hear more about:

    1. All positions of power are held by children, because they are the only ones considered innocent enough to not abuse their power. In practice, the kids are not so incorruptible, and the adults regret ceding power to them. Adults work tirelessly in the fields and factories, while children with machine guns bark orders at them.

    2. Writing is banned, along with photography, television, and anything else that the government deems excessively symbolic. They aim to achieve zero percent literacy, but it's no easy task, given that there's a massive illegal book trade.

    3. War is treated as a sport, where one should strive to win, but also play honorably. That means no deception, no torture, and no slavery, because they claim these things violate the spirit of war. The nastier side of this ideology is that peace is considered just as dishonorable as these offenses, since they consider it an unnatural suppression of the will to conquer.

    4. "An eye for an eye" is taken as far as it can possibly go. Everyone is to be given exactly the reward or punishment they have earned. It is a hyper-individualist society, where having friends is practically impossible without getting charged with conspiracy against the public.
     
  7. Earthallias Who TF keeps liking but not replying?

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    Those sound like rogue states that would exist for about a month until collapsing into civil war and facing interventions by the resident superpower or international peacekeeping organization
     
  8. Miranda Brawner Trans Woman Donor

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    Yeah, the hard part is coming up with origin stories for these ideologies. It would take some pretty special circumstances for these to have enough popular support to be put in place and last more than one generation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
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  9. Jack Hawksmoor Custodes Infinitorum: Multis Mundi, Specula Multa

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    Sol 3
    I apologize in advance for asking something probably obvious:

    Why is this thread in this forum? Does it mean its material (societies) are collected and published somewhere?

    I am wondering because I hope there is some kind of compilation.

    I would very much like to read all the various scenarios but without threadmarks it is slightly annoying in a thread with 1700+ posts and multiple authors.

    Also, I've conceived of several original settings for a story and I would like to compare if there have been similar ideas here as some the entries are indeed very well written (kudos to authors).
     
  10. no one Neither me,nor you. Banned

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    yours
    I have settings for worlds.
    1: Two superpowers are locked in a cold war, just like OTL, however, they treat it as a giant game of chicken, with them consistently threatening war on each other until the other backs down
    2. A nation whose whole economy is based around declaring war on weaker nations, and stealing their money after winning
     
  11. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    Goering's Germany in TNO in a nutshell.
     
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  12. Used-to-be Song Chinese 新建伯兼南京兵部尚書兼都察院左都御史

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    There i this gem that I found when I used to indulge Illuminati franchise:

    http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/The-Political-Series(3043164).htm
     
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  13. sarahz Well-Known Member

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    well the 2nd is the logical extension of Fahrenheit 451 by Bradbury
     
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  14. sarahz Well-Known Member

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    not Puerto Rico?
     
  15. Miranda Brawner Trans Woman Donor

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    Yeah, I should read that again for inspiration. I read it a long time ago when I was pretty young, and unfortunately I don't remember much. For my no-writing society, I was thinking it would be a weird mix of deep-green primitivism and modern technology. Communications technologies would be absolutely forbidden, but in other areas they'd look very modern, with state-of-the-art medicine and the latest, most energy efficient solar panels and maglev trains. (The trains do NOT run on time, though, since standardized time is another concept they despise.) As for the motivation for such a society, you know how it's often pointed out that on the internet, where things are anonymous, people are less considerate? Well, this society noticed that this applies not just to the internet, but to writing in general. Their hatred of anonymity is why they oppose recording the human voice as well. They want the only mode of communication to be face to face, so that everyone has to take ownership of their words, instead of letting the words speak for themselves. Along with anonymity, they also oppose anything overly "formal" or "bureaucratic" such as having a codified constitution or a standardized school curriculum. Their preferred form of government, of course, is direct democracy, where decisions are made publicly in spirited town hall meetings rather than in backroom deals. That's the ideal, anyway. In reality, there are still plenty of backroom deals, since the whole thing is run by a handful of rich families who have an interest in keeping people illiterate, impoverished, and confused so that they won't be able to organize an effective rebellion.
     
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  16. xsampa Well-Known Member

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    Mar 23, 2014
    I was thinking about a reactionary ideology to neoliberalism that embraces components from its varying critics. For example, in response to Occupy! and other leftpop movements, it advocates direct democracy for local issues while supporting a technocratic elite to keep the wealthy in check and eliminate voting, which would be seen as a tool of neolibs. Other trojan (hobby) horses would include identity politics, individualism, since it destroys institutions that could rival neoliberalism like the church, unions and clubs, and Americanization of other countries.
     
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  17. xsampa Well-Known Member

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    @rvbomally: In the Moskowien map, there was an independent RK turkestan. Is it dominated by Germans? Also, what happened India and Nazi Africa?
     
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  18. jerseyguy Well-Known Member

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    Feb 25, 2017
    This just sounds like the Khmer rouge with access to solar panels. Direct "democracy", communications technology forbidden, and an extreme anti-intellectual opposition to writing. The only saving grace would be if this place doesn't decide to collectivize agriculture or execute people with glasses (a sign of being able to read and write).
     
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  19. jerseyguy Well-Known Member

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    Feb 25, 2017
    This first one is actually very close to North Korea. The regimes sees the Korea people as as a pure, virtuous and child-like race who need to be protected from the outside world by a motherly leader. Propaganda described Kim Jong Il quite adrongynously as the "parent leader" and state media emphasize the motherly qualities of Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un. Paintings and stories depict the Kims visiting military bases in the dead of winter to make sure the soldiers are warm and have enough to eat (like a devoted mother).

    I just finished reading The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why it Matters by Brian Reynold Myers. It's a great explanation of how North Korea developed the way it did and what its leaders believe.
     
  20. Arcvalons The internationale unites the world in song.

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    No.3 is basically Aztec Flower Wars
     
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