An Examination of Extra-Universal Systems of Government

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Ephraim Ben Raphael, May 19, 2011.

  1. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    I've decided to set the Federation of Sovereign Voluntarists in the Philippines, but can't think of an idea on how to put some Hoppeans in charge. This will have to be a late PoD, with the timeline set sometime in the future, since I want them to be influenced by Hoppe particularly. Any thoughts?
     
  2. Aqua817 The Means of Production

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    Idea: Orthodox Bishop-ocracy.

    Okay, in the Orthodox Church, Priests are allowed to marry. But throughout history there was on-and-off talk of allowing bishops to marry. What if dynastic Orthodox bishoprics basically took the role of both feudal and religious lords in a world that remained religious to an extremely staunch degree, so instead of there being, say, "Russia," there are the "Ecumenical Assembly of Orthodox Bishops in the Land of the Rus" or something like that, where all these bishops are jockeying against each other and anyone who speaks out is threatened with excommunication.
     
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  3. Crying Man my name sucks

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    Not saying it's a bad idea or anything, but isn't that just Feudalism with some Theocratic trappings?
     
  4. Gokbay Active Member

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    I like Russia of the Church idea. Maybe the Patriach of Moscow or Kiew or perhaps even the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople as the Tsar equivelant.



    By the way I seem to not be able to get rid of the line under my words.
     
  5. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    Does it need to be anything else? ;)
     
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  6. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

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    Feeling deeply dissatisfied with living in a statist society, a rather broad group of anarcho-capitalist types seek to set up their own country. They manage to get some wealthy backers, who may wish to see such an experiment crried out for their own purposes and/or who may actually believe in the ideology. At the same time, the Philippines end up in some kind of unfortunate situation (possibly involving an extrapolation of current politics there, since those are... not great) that leads to economic disaster. In highly capitalist manner, the anarcho-capitalist group eventually buys certain parts of the Philippines, to set up their own state.

    Shortly thereafter, as they are setting up their "private law society" (or whatever they end up calling it), the Hoppean faction gains overwhelming influence. Perhaps they are simply a majority among the first ones to immigrate? It depends a lot on what this "Federation of Sovereign Voluntarists" actually is. How is it structured? If it is actually anarcho-capitalist, getting any ideological group 'in charge' will be difficult. I've outlined some ideas on how such a societies could go right or wrong over here. Besides the value one puts on either equality or liberty (which largely decides whether one considers such a system to be inherently superior or inferior to a more statist, distributive system), the main way I can see such a system go 'evil' is through a concentration of informal, economic power in the hands of a small elite.

    An attempt to enforce one particular ideology is by definition difficult. It can be done if said elite is fully dedicated to that ideology, but otherwise, it basically requires that the anarchism gets diluted and a state apparatus is set up to enforce said ideology. The only other alternative I can see is one whereby the country is founded and populated exclusively by Hoppeans, but I doubt there are enough of them on Earth - let alone enough willing to move to a new country - to set up a breakaway society.

    Essentially: if the "Federation of Sovereign Voluntarists" is truly a stateless venture, then you will either have to make it so that the land where it's founded is bought and owned by a bunch of very rich, very dedicated Hoppeans (do any wealthy Hoppeans even exist?), or so that a group comprised exclusively of Hoppeans settles there.

    (A potential outcome would be a mix of the above. A group of anarcho-capitalists essentially buys a country, which is carved out of territory formerly belonging to the Phillipines. They have a number of wealthy backers, one or two of whom would be a dedicated Hoppean. This results in a part of the new country being owned by this rich Hoppean investor, who onlty sells or rents part of his personal land to fellow Hoppeans. So you get a Hoppean sub-section within a broader anarcho-capitalist society. Fairly soon, the Hoppean part closes itself off completely to all non-Hoppeans, and secedes from the rest. Take it from there.)
     
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  7. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    Good stuff. My idea with the Federation of Sovereign Voluntarists is they're a mirror image of the Soviet Union: they acknowledge they have a state (although go to great lengths to change names, such as calling taxes "rent"), but it's intended to be the nucleus for the abolition of all other states so that no statists can ever threaten voluntarism. They also make the concession that the people are "not yet ready" to accept anarcho-capitalism, and since the work of readying the people takes generations, the state apparatus must exist to protect the anarcho-capitalist from external and internal threats while it is still in its embryonic stages. Of course, the state will waste away, but that will happen tomorrow! A tomorrow that never comes.
     
  8. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    The flag and map of the City of London.

    CityOfLondon.png
     
  9. naraht Well-Known Member

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    Just as a quick check, that's farther into Europe than the Ottomans *ever* got iOTL, right?
     
  10. Evan Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness!

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    The scale's small enough that I can't be sure, but it looks like it's just about their maximum OTL extent. Or maybe just a little more.
     
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  11. Crying Man my name sucks

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    Hmmm, some of those borders... make me think that this could be a (somewhat bizzare) CP-victory wank.
     
  12. Gokbay Active Member

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    Doesn't seem like it to me. The pod should be way earlier. Like Early Modern or Renaissance. I mean a large Grad-duchy of Lithuania, a larger Scotland, Sweden including Finland and Estonia+Latvia, Ottoman Empire at its maximum in Europe+ Crimeam Khanate and 3 Romanian Principalities as vassals+ Egypt, Denmark-Norway, Papal States. It also seems to be a German wank with a balkanized France+ entire Iberia+ all of Italy other than Papal States as puppets. 20th (and probably 19th) century was probably nothing like otl.
     
  13. Zurirach Adankar Well-Known Member

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    No, it looks like a large Holy Roman Empire.
     
  14. Crying Man my name sucks

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    It was mainly the borders in Africa, though now that I look again... maybe not.
     
  15. 1SaBy Phlegmatic from the East

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    It is, Ottomans have practically all of modern day Hungary, Croatia and Slovakia here. IOTL western Hungary, western Croatia and most of Slovakia were never part of the Ottoman Empire. It is possible though that they still de facto held/occupied some of these areas.
     
  16. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    You're on the right track.
     
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