An Examination of Extra-Universal Systems of Government

To be fair that is not the flag of the CSA. Two of its flags did include it however.
It's the flag used by its army, which kidnapped free blacks and forced them into slavery and committed such heinous war crimes as crucifixion of black soldiers. And its used by the Confederacy's prejudiced present day defenders.
 
It's the flag used by its army, which kidnapped free blacks and forced them into slavery and committed such heinous war crimes as crucifixion of black soldiers. And its used by the Confederacy's prejudiced present day defenders.
I didn't defend the Confederacy. I just said that it wasn't the national flag.
 
Has anyone proposed a necrocracy?

I know North Korea is usually considered one what with Kim Il-sung and Jong-il being named Eternal Leaders posthumously, but has there been a proposal with a leader effectively remaining in control long after they've shuffled off the mortal coil?

Been considering the likes of an newly independent nation who's early leadership was deeply involved in spiritualism before their death. When they died without a clear successor, no-one is able to grab power solidly enough to properly replace them. Half-jokingly half-desperate, the former leaders underlings try contacting their spirit via the means of an Ouija board or tarot cards or some such thing for guidance. While most of it is useless gibberish, some spiritual "guidance" (nothing too complex mind you. Along the lines of the board spelling "METALS" or a good card being drawn when a favourable course of action is named) is derived and remarkably, proves to be very productive, effectively cementing the idea of the Old Leader still guiding the nation from beyond the grave in the minds of the people. Over time, the actual running of government solidifies around someone lower down the ladder with the power and duties of the Old Leaders office being bled away to different branches, but the Old Leader still remains as head of state, "consulted" for guidance, able to accept or react legislation brought before them via their spiritual means of communication, and generally being a symbol for the country.

(for a laugh, you could also have most of their senior staff die too and effectively remain in place forever with no-one able to replace the old cabinet and their departments needing to consult them the same way they do the old leader)
 
Has anyone proposed a necrocracy?

I know North Korea is usually considered one what with Kim Il-sung and Jong-il being named Eternal Leaders posthumously, but has there been a proposal with a leader effectively remaining in control long after they've shuffled off the mortal coil?

Been considering the likes of an newly independent nation who's early leadership was deeply involved in spiritualism before their death. When they died without a clear successor, no-one is able to grab power solidly enough to properly replace them. Half-jokingly half-desperate, the former leaders underlings try contacting their spirit via the means of an Ouija board or tarot cards or some such thing for guidance. While most of it is useless gibberish, some spiritual "guidance" (nothing too complex mind you. Along the lines of the board spelling "METALS" or a good card being drawn when a favourable course of action is named) is derived and remarkably, proves to be very productive, effectively cementing the idea of the Old Leader still guiding the nation from beyond the grave in the minds of the people. Over time, the actual running of government solidifies around someone lower down the ladder with the power and duties of the Old Leaders office being bled away to different branches, but the Old Leader still remains as head of state, "consulted" for guidance, able to accept or react legislation brought before them via their spiritual means of communication, and generally being a symbol for the country.

(for a laugh, you could also have most of their senior staff die too and effectively remain in place forever with no-one able to replace the old cabinet and their departments needing to consult them the same way they do the old leader)
I could have sworn something like this took place in the interwar era, with it getting out that the Prime Minister of a nation was a spiritualist who tried to contact his predecessor for advice. I can't remember the country though.
 
Has anyone proposed a necrocracy?

I know North Korea is usually considered one what with Kim Il-sung and Jong-il being named Eternal Leaders posthumously, but has there been a proposal with a leader effectively remaining in control long after they've shuffled off the mortal coil?

Been considering the likes of an newly independent nation who's early leadership was deeply involved in spiritualism before their death. When they died without a clear successor, no-one is able to grab power solidly enough to properly replace them. Half-jokingly half-desperate, the former leaders underlings try contacting their spirit via the means of an Ouija board or tarot cards or some such thing for guidance. While most of it is useless gibberish, some spiritual "guidance" (nothing too complex mind you. Along the lines of the board spelling "METALS" or a good card being drawn when a favourable course of action is named) is derived and remarkably, proves to be very productive, effectively cementing the idea of the Old Leader still guiding the nation from beyond the grave in the minds of the people. Over time, the actual running of government solidifies around someone lower down the ladder with the power and duties of the Old Leaders office being bled away to different branches, but the Old Leader still remains as head of state, "consulted" for guidance, able to accept or react legislation brought before them via their spiritual means of communication, and generally being a symbol for the country.

(for a laugh, you could also have most of their senior staff die too and effectively remain in place forever with no-one able to replace the old cabinet and their departments needing to consult them the same way they do the old leader)
We had the Kingdom of Corsica where the government received "guidance" from the Virgin Mary.
 
The last anarchist/libertarian state featured in An Examination of Extra-Universal Systems of Government, this time an Objectivist American government in exile in Guantanamo Bay. Ephraim Ben Raphael provided me with a description for this one. His description is in italics. The bullet points are mine.

---

Who Is John Galt?

[FONT=&quot]So I wrote this scenario as an angry response to an Objectivist AH scenario posted on this site, a version of which can be found here (it has some minor differences). It had Bush nuking much of the Arab world including Mecca and Medina (which somehow resulted in less terrorism and swarms of Muslims converting to Christianity) the Republicans dominating American politics, the EU being gradually abolished, the UN quietly ceasing to criticize America, Israel committing full-on ethnic cleansing to solve the Conflict, a strong Putinist Russia re-integrating the Muslim Central Asian Republics, and the PRC falling apart as large portions of mainland China switch their loyalty to the RoC. Also Barack Obama ending up a disgraced former politician who loses his job as a university professor when he's caught artificially raising students' grades.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So, the world in my scenario (if you want some more detail check out EEUSG);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The NAU is most of the former United States but not all of it. There are a couple of odds and ends that chose a looser association (EU style and including a couple of places that weren't part of the USA) and Alaska which is fully independent but still friendly. With the Republican Party having gone the way of the Whig when a Republican President murdered hundreds of thousands and tried to impose a dictatorship, the NAU proper is just moving away from a Democrat-dominated dominant-party system with the Democrats moving to the right as the new Progressive Party attacks them from the left. Palestine and Israel are both around, they worked out a sort of post-Westphalian approach by which the West Bank and Gaza are Palestinian territory, Israel proper is Israeli territory, Jerusalem hosts both capitals, a whole bunch of weird borders and enclaves, and the Old City is under a joint administration. Citizens of both countries have freedom of movement between the two and freedom to live wherever they want... as long as they can afford to buy a house there, and you can opt for either citizenship regardless of where you're born. It's all very complicated, with lots of shouting and fights over jurisdiction, and periodic murders and bombings, but so far there hasn't been any open warfare. The Islamic Confederation is an Islamic state more along the lines of Iran (but Sunni) than ISIS and truly loathes America and the west. It’s a very unpleasant place to be a woman, homosexuality is punished by death, and non-Muslims are a persecuted minority.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Generally Islamic extremism is much stronger than OTL, given that (a) parts of its platform sound almost reasonable considering what was done to the Islamic world, and (b) every day religious Muslims all over the world pray five times in the direction of the radioactive crater where Mecca was and are reminded of what was done to them.

In the west there's a very loose Japan-NAU-EU-Commonwealth bloc composed of the old order and hanging together for fear of hanging separately while China is the world's #1 superpower but with relatively fewer allies. The Republic of China is no more, the Republic of Taiwan is firmly part of China’s sphere as much as the Taiwanese leadership finds it necessary to periodically assert their independence. China, incidentally is dominated by the conservative so-called “Tianjin Clique” of the CPC who are brutally putting down Islamic unrest in western China and pushing a foreign policy designed to expand Chinese influence and power. They’re challenged by the successors to the reform-minded Tsinghua Clique, many of whom belong to the eight legal minor parties and are making moves to actually challenge Tianjinites in competitive elections.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The UN (located in Geneva) is mildly stronger, the EU much stronger and more federalized. Putin's misrule of Russia (including dragging the country into bloody and expensive attempts to conquer the Ukraine and Kazakhstan once America fell into chaos) eventually resulted in a massive popular backlash that saw him defeated for the presidency by a member of the Reformer faction within the Russian Communist Party. When he tried to stay in power anyway, Euromaidan-style protests broke out and an army whose fixed salaries had been rendered worthless by runaway inflation stood back and watched while he was forced to resign. Although briefly controlled by a Communist-led coalition of former opposition parties, Russia has since settled down under a 2+ party system with the Communists as the main right-wing party, A Just Russia as the main left-wing party, and a fusion of the LDPR and United Russia as a minor far-right third party. Several small bits of the Russian Federation have been allowed to go their own way- notably Chechnya, Tartarstan, Daghestan, Kalmykia, and Tuva.[/FONT]


  • There is a North African Republic that's the result of a more successful Arab Spring. Still very Islamic, with the dominant political parties being expressly Islamic in nature.
  • India is a Chinese ally, but still democratic.
  • The Islamist states aren't necessarily too bad, closer to OTL Pakistan, although some are ISIS or Taliban nasty. These include Afghanistan, the new Iranian regime, and the Maghreb.

View attachment 259317
What happened to Edward Cline himself in this world?Or does Butler's existence replace his?
What about Objectivism in general?Does GITMO have any allies at all?

How deeply is Islamophobia frowned upon in this world
 
To be fair that is not the flag of the CSA. Two of its flags did include it however.
I remember that someone did an experiment and flew the original (1861-1863) national flag of the confederacy (which looks like the betsy ross flag except with only three stripes (red, white, red) and the blue canton (which has 13 states, counting Kentucky and Missouri) taking up the area of two of the stripes at the staff) in a mixed race area (I *think* in Cleveland) and only *one* person who commented on it realized what it was in over a year. (most people thought it was a variant US Revolutionary war flag)
 
I really like this. Maybe a French Revolution gone even weirder.
I was actually thinking the Easter Rising leaders manage to escape capture, but personal arguments between them and the other Irish Republican leaders turn bitter and the end result is that when the WW1 and interwar conflict dust settles you have an Irish Republic and a Republic of Ireland occupying the same exact territory. I'm thinking both would be nominally one-party states but the allegiance of the population is what decides who has the advantage in negotiations between the two factions and therefore who's in charge.

It'd probably be relatively lighthearted, with lots of Very Serious ceremonial stuff being openly joked about by government members and such. Technically I guess you can say this is sort of morphing into something approaching a two-party democracy but with enforced bipartisanship since you can't get anything done without agreement between the two factions (with all the pitfalls, stagnation, and stupidity that entails).
 
Please don't post stuff like this in my thread.

It's the flag used by its army, which kidnapped free blacks and forced them into slavery and committed such heinous war crimes as crucifixion of black soldiers. And its used by the Confederacy's prejudiced present day defenders.
I didn't know that the Confederacy actually crucified black soldiers, did that happen at Fort Pillow?

Has anyone proposed a necrocracy?

I know North Korea is usually considered one what with Kim Il-sung and Jong-il being named Eternal Leaders posthumously, but has there been a proposal with a leader effectively remaining in control long after they've shuffled off the mortal coil?

Been considering the likes of an newly independent nation who's early leadership was deeply involved in spiritualism before their death. When they died without a clear successor, no-one is able to grab power solidly enough to properly replace them. Half-jokingly half-desperate, the former leaders underlings try contacting their spirit via the means of an Ouija board or tarot cards or some such thing for guidance. While most of it is useless gibberish, some spiritual "guidance" (nothing too complex mind you. Along the lines of the board spelling "METALS" or a good card being drawn when a favourable course of action is named) is derived and remarkably, proves to be very productive, effectively cementing the idea of the Old Leader still guiding the nation from beyond the grave in the minds of the people. Over time, the actual running of government solidifies around someone lower down the ladder with the power and duties of the Old Leaders office being bled away to different branches, but the Old Leader still remains as head of state, "consulted" for guidance, able to accept or react legislation brought before them via their spiritual means of communication, and generally being a symbol for the country.

(for a laugh, you could also have most of their senior staff die too and effectively remain in place forever with no-one able to replace the old cabinet and their departments needing to consult them the same way they do the old leader)
I did something like in the Kingdom of Corsica, although the idea behind it is rather different it functioned similarly.

What happened to Edward Cline himself in this world?Or does Butler's existence replace his?
I'm going to say that he was around, he's just a lot lower profile of a figure.

What about Objectivism in general?Does GITMO have any allies at all?
GITMO has no allies. Most Objectivists claim that what Butler's doing isn't true Objectivism, but they haven't totally avoided being tarred with the same brush.

How deeply is Islamophobia frowned upon in this world
Given that it led to mass murder ITTL, it's pretty frowned on.
 
Are the companies who are willing to take Butler's gold connected to organized crime (if not outright fronts for organized crime)? Considering how screwed up his regime and actions are, I wouldn't be surprised if they were.
Some are, others are just helping to keep his regime contained- keep in mind he uses the threat of nuclear weapons to get stuff he needs from the rest of the world.
 
I do have a similar idea, the Singapore Pandemic Response one. That one is significantly more dystopian, though.
I was thinking another stab at that "Pakistan gets hit by a major epidemic after one of the wars with India, they put an ascetic philanthropist in charge, he empowers the public-health ministry to the point of near absurdity" idea I had a year or so back.
That works!
I'm thinking that it's a reaction to a totalitarian Oswald Mosley regime during WK2. Doesn't really matter which faction wins, gist of it is that Mosley fucks up hard in the aftermath and there's a bad winter, famine, people freezing to death, and he responds by cracking down, so Eric Blair and TE Lawrence lead a coup and reorganize the government to be more in line with anarcho-syndicalist principles, which is nice in theory but leads to emerging industries being constantly hungry for more influence and established ones desperately clawing for power. So basically a generally functional democracy with all the bickering that entails.
Maybe something based on the MBTI test. I’ve seen employers require it as part of the hiring process, so I can see a state going overdrive on it.
ooh, it could be based on standardized test scores, like the SATs. It'd be a shitty totalitarian regime of course.
This is very similar to my Thai idea on the index. I’m down for a collaboration.
I was thinking straight up strasserist Germany, but I'd love to see how that turns out.
 
I was thinking another stab at that "Pakistan gets hit by a major epidemic after one of the wars with India, they put an ascetic philanthropist in charge, he empowers the public-health ministry to the point of near absurdity" idea I had a year or so back.
Right, I don't think our ideas are the same at all. I think we should pursue both separately. Both would fit well with the technocracy chapter.

I'm thinking that it's a reaction to a totalitarian Oswald Mosley regime during WK2. Doesn't really matter which faction wins, gist of it is that Mosley fucks up hard in the aftermath and there's a bad winter, famine, people freezing to death, and he responds by cracking down, so Eric Blair and TE Lawrence lead a coup and reorganize the government to be more in line with anarcho-syndicalist principles, which is nice in theory but leads to emerging industries being constantly hungry for more influence and established ones desperately clawing for power. So basically a generally functional democracy with all the bickering that entails.
I like it, although I'll admit to being an absolute ignoramus with Kaiserreich lore.

ooh, it could be based on standardized test scores, like the SATs. It'd be a shitty totalitarian regime of course.
I'm leaning more towards MBTI or another personality test because it doesn't just establish a hierarchy, it establishes an entire caste system. MBTI provides sixteen different personality types, so each of these could be a different caste in society, with people tested as being in one personality railroaded for life on a particular career path. A personality judged to be more personable would be assigned to caretaking professions, while those that are less personable but more analytical would be engineers, and so on. I also think this moves the idea away from the mandarin system.

Instead of being just a shitty totalitarian regime, I imagined it being functional but deeply flawed. The personality test is more or less accurate for most people, and generally it gives people jobs and career paths that they are happy with. The down sides come with the test not being 100% accurate and people getting stuck in roles they don't like, or people changing as they grow and having a similar problem. And of course, a select group of personality types are geared towards leadership, and of course said leadership is intentionally teaching their kids to take the test in such a way that they'll get picked for leadership too.

This would, of course, go in the technocracy chapter.

EDIT: I like this idea enough that I'm going with it. :p

I was thinking straight up strasserist Germany, but I'd love to see how that turns out.
I felt that was too obvious a choice. :p Instead of Thailand, another Southeast Asian state could be used. A Nazbol Malaysia, with ethnic Chinese as the designated "vanguard race," perhaps?
 
Last edited:
I like it, although I'll admit to being an absolute ignoramus with Kaiserreich lore.
Basically, in the current lore of KR (allegedly there's a shakeup coming but I don't like the sound of it so far) the prolonged WW1, the repression of the labor movement for longer, a failure to pass government reforms, and an economic collapse exacerbated by the humiliating defeat in alt-WW1, results in the collapse of the British state into a socialist revolution that establishes a representative democratic republic on broadly anarcho-syndicalist lines. However, continued economic stress caused by a German embargo and the aftershocks of the British Empire's collapse leads to serious loss of faith in the system, and can enable Oswald Mosley's totalitarian Maximist party (think CommieNazis, or 1984's Oceania) to take over Britain. One of the ways that Mosley can leave power is if after the Second Weltkrieg, Eric Blair (AKA George Orwell) becomes disillusioned by Mosley's increasingly open totalitarianism and can no longer justify it as wartime measures, so Blair goes to T.E. Lawrence, head of the Revolution Exportation Department, and launches a coup, removing Mosley and re-establishing a shaky democracy.
I'm leaning more towards MBTI or another personality test because it doesn't just establish a hierarchy, it establishes an entire caste system. MBTI provides sixteen different personality types, so each of these could be a different caste in society, with people tested as being in one personality railroaded for life on a particular career path. A personality judged to be more personable would be assigned to caretaking professions, while those that are less personable but more analytical would be engineers, and so on. I also think this moves the idea away from the mandarin system.

Instead of being just a shitty totalitarian regime, I imagined it being functional but deeply flawed. The personality test is more or less accurate for most people, and generally it gives people jobs and career paths that they are happy with. The down sides come with the test not being 100% accurate and people getting stuck in roles they don't like, or people changing as they grow and having a similar problem. And of course, a select group of personality types are geared towards leadership, and of course said leadership is intentionally teaching their kids to take the test in such a way that they'll get picked for leadership too.

This would, of course, go in the technocracy chapter.

EDIT: I like this idea enough that I'm going with it. :p
I don't see a way it would be functional at all. The inspiration is deliberately taking off of YA dystopia novels and movies where you get shit like people divided by arbitrary personality virtues, people who score badly on the SATs being killed, etc.

I also don't trust the MBTI an inch, so I might be biased here.
I felt that was too obvious a choice. :p Instead of Thailand, another Southeast Asian state could be used. A Nazbol Malaysia, with ethnic Chinese as the designated "vanguard race," perhaps?
Another option I'd go with is actually a Southern victory USA. I outlined something like this in one of the TL-191 threads, the basic idea is that William Dudley Pelley becomes dictator of the USA and believes in a "Coming Race" formed by the hybridization of "the morally and physically superior Negro and the superior breeds of Saxon, Scot, and Irish mental super-men of our great Northern race" which will in his bugfuck crazy mind inherit the Earth and reconquer the South from the "degenerate Norman race of mental midgets that inhabit the treasonous Confederacy". So the caste system basically goes: Mixed-race people > whites of state-approved background & blacks > Asian and Indian people > Native Americans who have sucked up to the state enough > whites of non-state-approved background.

This would be probably the closest thing to a "good" nazbol regime, honestly.
 
Basically, in the current lore of KR (allegedly there's a shakeup coming but I don't like the sound of it so far) the prolonged WW1, the repression of the labor movement for longer, a failure to pass government reforms, and an economic collapse exacerbated by the humiliating defeat in alt-WW1, results in the collapse of the British state into a socialist revolution that establishes a representative democratic republic on broadly anarcho-syndicalist lines. However, continued economic stress caused by a German embargo and the aftershocks of the British Empire's collapse leads to serious loss of faith in the system, and can enable Oswald Mosley's totalitarian Maximist party (think CommieNazis, or 1984's Oceania) to take over Britain. One of the ways that Mosley can leave power is if after the Second Weltkrieg, Eric Blair (AKA George Orwell) becomes disillusioned by Mosley's increasingly open totalitarianism and can no longer justify it as wartime measures, so Blair goes to T.E. Lawrence, head of the Revolution Exportation Department, and launches a coup, removing Mosley and re-establishing a shaky democracy.
Ah, I see. I look forward to your entry. :)

I don't see a way it would be functional at all. The inspiration is deliberately taking off of YA dystopia novels and movies where you get shit like people divided by arbitrary personality virtues, people who score badly on the SATs being killed, etc.

I also don't trust the MBTI an inch, so I might be biased here.
That's fine, I think my idea is divergent enough from yours that we can pursue them independently. I don't put much trust in MBTI either, hence the flaws in the system, but I think a system which asks people about what they like and then assigning them to a job which involves that would yield positive results more than random assignment. The flaws come in because the test isn't that accurate, railroads people into a very specific role, and of course the testing process itself is often rigged.

Another option I'd go with is actually a Southern victory USA. I outlined something like this in one of the TL-191 threads, the basic idea is that William Dudley Pelley becomes dictator of the USA and believes in a "Coming Race" formed by the hybridization of "the morally and physically superior Negro and the superior breeds of Saxon, Scot, and Irish mental super-men of our great Northern race" which will in his bugfuck crazy mind inherit the Earth and reconquer the South from the "degenerate Norman race of mental midgets that inhabit the treasonous Confederacy". So the caste system basically goes: Mixed-race people > whites of state-approved background & blacks > Asian and Indian people > Native Americans who have sucked up to the state enough > whites of non-state-approved background.

This would be probably the closest thing to a "good" nazbol regime, honestly.
The only reason I wouldn't go with it is because I think EEUSG has way too many America entries as it is. :p I do remember AAPA's American Empire trying to create a "master race" through mixing races and getting the "best racial traits" out of all of them.
 
The only reason I wouldn't go with it is because I think EEUSG has way too many America entries as it is. :p I do remember AAPA's American Empire trying to create a "master race" through mixing races and getting the "best racial traits" out of all of them.
what about a post ww2 Mittleafrika analogue, where ww2 ends with the destruction of most of europe, and they try to form a 'master race' by mixing the native blacks, and the (northern european) whites?
 
Top