An Essay on the Nazi Victory scenario

Well, Red, in my China Scenario i was thinking Total KMT victory.

It depends on how they win, but presuming you mean Chang eradicates them with an offensive into Manchuria in 1946 there's a good chance they could overtake the Reichs economy. But I don't see how a German victory leads to him winning, if anything it gives the communists a better chance.

You have to remember that the Nazi Nuclear Bomb Scientists were prohibited from using e=mc2 because Einstein, a jewish phsysicist, established its role in nuclear physics. Oh, thanks for reminding me about the Nazi bomb project BTW. It never had a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding. I might redraft this essay and ask Ian to put it up on the Gateway.

Publicly yes but the idea that a scientific equation could be banned is mad. Also they made some progress, it's rumoured that Kurt Diebner at the Army Ordinance Office may have got his reactor online in early 1945. Of course the design he was working on was a 1KT bomb which would have been weak even as a tactical nuke and feeble strategically.

As for the education system. If your idea of education is learning only about warfare and racist pseudo-science, then you are not going to have as good uality an education compared with someone from Chile or Brazil.

The pre-WW1 German education system was second to none even though it contained a large degree of militarism I don't see why the Nazi education system couldn't be the same. And subjects will inevitably suffer due to propaganda but states such as the USSR or Cuba had excellent education systems even though their curriculums were heavily influenced by propaganda.

However, the Physicists would be the last of a breed and if Germany wants to compete with the Americans/British, they would have to reform their education system, significantly. No more questions about missiles hitting New York City (presumably replacing Warsaw in the textbooks).

The Soviet Union had excellent scientists born years after the revolution Avalon. Progress and innovation are natural human traits, the effect the state has on them is the same effect the state has on the number of fingers people have.
 
You also have to consider the rather crappy future of leadership of Nazi Germany after Hitler dies. Next in line you get folks like Goering, Himmler, etc. And the way Nazi Germany would be run there is no way they can make significant reforms or even run the place efficiently with those characters in charge.
 
I stand corrected Red on Nazi Science, but i think we agree it will be behind the west anyway, but on differing degrees of backwardness.

On the Nazi Education system:

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Nazis_Education.htm

If most of your education system is going to be based around propaganda and fitness, i don't see many great scientists coming out of the school system.

I don't see how the Maoists would have a better chance. Their main pillar of support, the USSR, is weakened significantly and the KMT have more experienced troops. Combined with American aid and weapons as well as the capture of the Kwangtung Cache, we would be seeing a KMT China from Xinjiang to Tibet, from Taiwan to Manchuria.

I think Nazism had a particular dislike of Physics becuase it was seen as a "Jewish science" because it didn't fit into their racist worldview.
 
I stand corrected Red on Nazi Science, but i think we agree it will be behind the west anyway, but on differing degrees of backwardness

Indeed.

On the Nazi Education system:

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Nazis_Education.htm

If most of your education system is going to be based around propaganda and fitness, i don't see many great scientists coming out of the school system.

As I already explained the German Empire produced excellent scientists despite a similar type of education system.

I don't see how the Maoists would have a better chance. Their main pillar of support, the USSR, is weakened significantly and the KMT have more experienced troops. Combined with American aid and weapons as well as the capture of the Kwangtung Cache, we would be seeing a KMT China from Xinjiang to Tibet, from Taiwan to Manchuria.

If feasible at all, a Nazi victory will probably take place around 1943/44 and will include either a return to status quo or at best a brest litovsk style peace with the Soviets. This will give Stalin all the more time to hammer the Japanese and gain an even more powerful foothold in Asia, leading to him occupying more of China, unifying Korea and probbably creating a communist north Japan composed of Hokkaido and possibly northern Honshu.

I think Nazism had a particular dislike of Physics becuase it was seen as a "Jewish science" because it didn't fit into their racist worldview.

A myth, the Nazis were second to none in the field of rocketry for example.
 
Regardless of how good Nazi science could get, they are still dead in the long-term. Their nuclear program for example could never catch up to the Americans' as fast as the Russians did, I'm sure. That alone is a major factor. Then there's the fact that their foreign policy would not work very well, what with the ideology behind the state being the most extreme form of nationalism in history. In the war all their friends were the countries that just happened to be fighting the same people at the same time. All but Japan and Italy joined them because they were scared to hell of the Soviets. If the Soviets aren't in the picture, they're gone from any alliance. Japan would still fall to the Americans. There is no way they can win, so there goes Germany's only potential eastern allies. Hard to be a superpower when your only friend is fascist Italy. And then there's the fact that most of the Reich will probably hate the government intensely. In the USSR, they based the country off the idea that everyone gets to be equal and everything will be fair and whatever. In the West, it was the idea that anybody could become successful and make a nice living for themselves. But the Reich? The idea behind the place would be, "Great living quality for all those whom we deem genetically superior to the inferior races! Not an Aryan, too bad, get back to work!" Not a way to make people want to be in your country. Or to make it last 60 years.
 
Regardless of how good Nazi science could get, they are still dead in the long-term. Their nuclear program for example could never catch up to the Americans' as fast as the Russians did, I'm sure. That alone is a major factor.

The Soviets were completely wrecked after WW2, in fact that was the main reason they lost the Cold War. Yet they managed to equal and eventually become superior to the US in nuclear weapons. I don't see how a surviving Reich wouldn't be able to especially since no fighting will have taken place on their territory with a early war PoD.

Then there's the fact that their foreign policy would not work very well, what with the ideology behind the state being the most extreme form of nationalism in history.

It's likely they will liberalise in time, especially after Hitler's death. There have been many examples in history were normal countries have had decent relations with countires who have horrible racial agendas, I don't see why the Nazis would be such an exception.


In the war all their friends were the countries that just happened to be fighting the same people at the same time. All but Japan and Italy joined them because they were scared to hell of the Soviets. If the Soviets aren't in the picture, they're gone from any alliance. Japan would still fall to the Americans. There is no way they can win, so there goes Germany's only potential eastern allies. Hard to be a superpower when your only friend is fascist Italy.

The German-Japanese alliance was hardly firm, they had similar enemies but they were never really ideas. Italy only joined the Axis because they believed victory would come soon, without the ardennes catastrophe they were just as likely to join the allies. You also forget nations like Romania, Hungary and Finland who were also Axis members as well as the nations the Naizs would puppetize. Althoug a Nazi victory isn't feasible so this is all pointless.
 
I agree with most of your essay, but I think you should have included something about anti-semitism and the holocaust in it. If Nazi Germany did survive the war, it would still be hell to live there for anyone who wasn't part of the master race, even if Nazi Germany weren't a super power.
 
The problem here is that I was referring to the two ideas in theory. In practice, communism usually fails because it is too optimistic about human nature, whereas Nazism fails because of the opposite reason, it underestimates natural good-will and whatnot. Communism is supposed to be about making people equal and progressive and whatever, regardless of how it ends up in practice, whereas Nazi doctrine taught that women only belonged in the kitchen and taking care of children, certain physical features mark you out as a better human being, certain ethnic groups were always meant to be targeted for slavery/eradication, etc.
I'll grant you "in theory" but in practice they both tended to shoot themselves in the foot. The Soviets lasted for decades despite that so it isn't impossible for Nazi Germany, given a similar set of parameters, could do the same.
 
I'll grant you "in theory" but in practice they both tended to shoot themselves in the foot. The Soviets lasted for decades despite that so it isn't impossible for Nazi Germany, given a similar set of parameters, could do the same.
I made the point of pointing out communism "in theory" because that's what Soviet leaders (Stalin aside) wanted to achieve. Nazism, even in theory, is antithetical to most human morals and a Nazi state would be at least as despised TTL as it is OTL. Even Apartheid, a racial policy that did not involve outright genocide, pretty much got the USA and USSR both to agree that it was awful. The Nazis in TTL have just pissed off the entire world with their war, and are now in the process of trying to eradicate many elements of society down to the populations they don't like. Again, and I don't know why I have to keep pointing this out, the USSR was in a bad situation because of corruption and stagnation for the most part. They were not trying to destroy their own people.

Look at it this way, while resistance to the Soviet government took the shape of people speaking out against the government getting sent to asylums or gulags, or said dissenters or capitalists hopping the border to seek a new life, resistance to Nazi government would be whole races of people rising up in open rebellion or fleeing by the millions to avoid slavery or death, not to mention the numerous moderate leftists to communists doing pretty much the same. The Soviets achieved to evoke a sense of patriotism and loyalty in most of the country, whereas the Nazis do not even want anyone who isn't both Aryan and a National Socialist themselves. They can't even try to reach out to the other people. Nazi Germany would more resemble North Korea than the USSR. In addition to the USSR's economic problems, the Nazis would face constant open rebellions, riots, embargoes from most of the world, threats of invasion on most of their borders, etc. It cannot survive long, not with the Nazis in charge.

Finally, in reply to people saying they'd liberalize eventually like the USSR did, when people like Goering and Himmler are next in line for the leadership of your country, it's not going to get any better for a long, long time. Especially considering that Hitler's clique had complete control over the country, primarily because the entire Nazi party was pretty much in line with Hitler. In the case of the USSR, the Communist Party had many different factions and Khrushchev had enough support within the party to gain leadership. But the heads of the Nazi party were all like Hitler or worse, whether more incompetent like Goering or more fanatical (and also rather incompetent) like Himmler. If Himmler takes charge that's the end of Nazi Germany's future.
 
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