An Earlier Two Ocean Navy Act

What happens to the history of WW2 if Congress passes the Two Ocean navy act in October 1939 alongside the fleet expansion program that was passed otl in June 1940?
 
Well if the USN's out of treaty limits I could see them having more Cleveland's and Baltimores in the war by 42 which probably means the Iowas are going to be sooner and maybe more of the Alaska's are made (perhaps not the original designed one as of OTL) before late 44' early 45'.

The biggest thing is if the USN are still being held by treaty limits for capital ships, cause if not then that means more leeway for cruisers and capital ships in general.

The Large number of DD, and Subs ordered also helps out for 41' when the US enters the war.
 
Well if the USN's out of treaty limits I could see them having more Cleveland's and Baltimores in the war by 42 which probably means the Iowas are going to be sooner and maybe more of the Alaska's are made (perhaps not the original designed one as of OTL) before late 44' early 45'.

The biggest thing is if the USN are still being held by treaty limits for capital ships, cause if not then that means more leeway for cruisers and capital ships in general.

The Large number of DD, and Subs ordered also helps out for 41' when the US enters the war.
The naval treaties expired when WW2 started. One of the major changes would be that with the Essex design not yet ready I'm pretty sure at least three more Yorktowns would be built which would make 1942 much more interesting as they would probably be available for the Guadcanal campaign or its equivalent and Torch, especially when combined with the extra cruisers and destroyers that would be available. Alas I'm also certain that the USN's torpedoes will still not be fixed before the US gets invovled in WW2.
 
I've got to think about this one. Bu-Ord, Bu-Eng, Bu-Air and C and R are seriously messed up during these critical 1930s years. Better leadership might have been far more important than an earlier series of Navy bills.
 
I've got to think about this one. Bu-Ord, Bu-Eng, Bu-Air and C and R are seriously messed up during these critical 1930s years. Better leadership might have been far more important than an earlier series of Navy bills.
If only Bu-ships had been established in 1935.As for Bu-Ord maybe the increased funding enables the navy to actually do some weapon testing in proper depth, and the need for literally thousands of torpedos makes a new torpedo production plant necessary which would hopefully be ready by the end of 1941.
 
The Two Ocean Navy Act only passed in the panic resulting from the Fall of France.
The 1939 expansion was incredible enough in peacetime. I can't imagine any scenario that could cause the TONA to get passed in 1939.

Heck, even Hitler declaring war on the US at the same time as on Britain and France wouldn't get you the full thing. Imo.
 
The Two Ocean Navy Act only passed in the panic resulting from the Fall of France.
The 1939 expansion was incredible enough in peacetime. I can't imagine any scenario that could cause the TONA to get passed in 1939.

Heck, even Hitler declaring war on the US at the same time as on Britain and France wouldn't get you the full thing. Imo.

That seems unlikely. If Hitler declares war on the US, the US will go on a full war footing right away and that includes the navy.
 
That seems unlikely. If Hitler declares war on the US, the US will go on a full war footing right away and that includes the navy.
1) Hitler can't reach the US. So there won't be that sense of panic.
2) the US would expect France and Britain to carry the initial load.
3) Hitler would be defeated by armies, not navies.
4) what Navy is needed in the Atlantic is DEs, frigates and DDs for escort duty.

Thus a Hitler DoW in 1939 would lead to a massive expansion of the army, tank production, etc., with the Navy getting more, sure, but nothing like the TONA.
 
1) Hitler can't reach the US. So there won't be that sense of panic.
2) the US would expect France and Britain to carry the initial load.
3) Hitler would be defeated by armies, not navies.
4) what Navy is needed in the Atlantic is DEs, frigates and DDs for escort duty.

Thus a Hitler DoW in 1939 would lead to a massive expansion of the army, tank production, etc., with the Navy getting more, sure, but nothing like the TONA.
Functionally for a Naval War involving Germany the USN in 1938 said they needed 27 Battleships, 12 Carriers, 26 Heavy and 43 Light Cruisers not regarding any lighter units
In 1939 they would thus be short
3 Battleships
4 Aircraft Carriers
6 Heavy Cruisers
10 Light Cruisers (not sure of this number, depends on what authorized when RE Cleveland and Atlantas)
Any USN program involving a war with Germany has to include at least this much, realistically more as many of the ships already existing would be marginal, ie Arkansas, New York and Texas for Battleships, Ranger and Wasp for Carriers, the 10 Omaha class cruisers

Fundamentally it's about 50% the Two Ocean Navy Act in Cruisers, 25% in Carriers and 40% in battleships to start with, counting the need to replace less capable units it should be closer to 80% in cruisers, 33% in carriers and 80% in battleships if not more

Note that's just for Germany and dealing with the possibility of a Japanese backstab. If the USN feels it needs to prepare for a full on offensive War with Japan as well as with Germany, then things get bigger. For that the Navy says they need 32-40 Battleships, 12-18 Carriers, 29-41 Heavy Cruisers and 55-67 Light Cruisers

Or needing to authorize 8-16 Battleships, 4-10 Carriers, 9-21 Heavy Cruisers and 22-34 Light cruisers, which at the minimum equals the Two Ocean Navy Act in Battleships and Cruisers, at Maximum substantially larger in everything but carriers
 
1) Hitler can't reach the US. So there won't be that sense of panic.
2) the US would expect France and Britain to carry the initial load.
3) Hitler would be defeated by armies, not navies.
4) what Navy is needed in the Atlantic is DEs, frigates and DDs for escort duty.

Thus a Hitler DoW in 1939 would lead to a massive expansion of the army, tank production, etc., with the Navy getting more, sure, but nothing like the TONA.

Remember the TONA was passed only a year later with Japan being only moderately more of a threat. It's certainly possible its toned down a bit but maybe not as much as you think.
 
The OTL Two Ocean Navy Act was based not merely on the possibility of having to fight Germany, Italy and Japan alone, but also that the French and even the British fleet could fall into Nazi hands and be used against the United States. So with a still fighting France and Britain, we would not build as many ships because there was not the worst case scenario of all the world 's fleets turned against the USA on the table.
 
Functionally for a Naval War involving Germany the USN in 1938 said they needed 27 Battleships, 12 Carriers, 26 Heavy and 43 Light Cruisers not regarding any lighter units
In 1939 they would thus be short
3 Battleships
4 Aircraft Carriers
6 Heavy Cruisers
10 Light Cruisers (not sure of this number, depends on what authorized when RE Cleveland and Atlantas)
Any USN program involving a war with Germany has to include at least this much, realistically more as many of the ships already existing would be marginal, ie Arkansas, New York and Texas for Battleships, Ranger and Wasp for Carriers, the 10 Omaha class cruisers

Fundamentally it's about 50% the Two Ocean Navy Act in Cruisers, 25% in Carriers and 40% in battleships to start with, counting the need to replace less capable units it should be closer to 80% in cruisers, 33% in carriers and 80% in battleships if not more

Note that's just for Germany and dealing with the possibility of a Japanese backstab. If the USN feels it needs to prepare for a full on offensive War with Japan as well as with Germany, then things get bigger. For that the Navy says they need 32-40 Battleships, 12-18 Carriers, 29-41 Heavy Cruisers and 55-67 Light Cruisers

Or needing to authorize 8-16 Battleships, 4-10 Carriers, 9-21 Heavy Cruisers and 22-34 Light cruisers, which at the minimum equals the Two Ocean Navy Act in Battleships and Cruisers, at Maximum substantially larger in everything but carriers


In my opinion with the early start to the TONA You would probably see a half dozen more Helena Mods of the Brooklyn class, and 3 more Wichitas, before the design work is ready to go on the Clevelands and Baltimores.
 
Alas I'm also certain that the USN's torpedoes will still not be fixed before the US gets invovled in WW2.

And Wildcat will have problems with guns jamming and Dauntless will get its bombsight fogged in warm temperature. This combination will handicap USN carrier operations during the first months of war no matter if TONA comes earlier.
 
And Wildcat will have problems with guns jamming and Dauntless will get its bombsight fogged in warm temperature. This combination will handicap USN carrier operations during the first months of war no matter if TONA comes earlier.

1. Put a chiller circuit around the gunsight and insert a flip-up for bomb dropping. (Avenger mod.)
2. Adopt French Hispanos and quit farting around with the Madsens.
3. Hit Ralph Christie with a 2 x 4 in 1930 and arrange for the Rhode Island Congressional delegation to meet Machine Gun McGurk. After the elections and Ralph comes too, point out what a good idea it is for the country if Westinghouse and Bliss Leavitt get torpedo contracts for Ralph's hydrogen peroxide torpedo, his Mark 2 electric torpedo and Goat Island is turned into a Federal insane asylum for the terminally happy rejects of Bu-Eng., Bu-Air., Bu-Ord. and C and R. Plus put it to Mister Hoover, that a large robust federal investment in basic research that employs thousands of unemployed in "scientific endeavors"^1 will relieve some of the depression era effects.

^1 Besides close order drill with shovels and planting trees, should Uncle not pass off some of his other "curious endeavors" like building a new torpedo factory and assorted foundries as "economic stimulus"?
 

Driftless

Donor
Perhaps as a POD, the 1937 Shanghai battles incur more US casualties to the point where more members of congress get nervous, with the Anschluss and Munich Crisis keeping the Chinese events from sliding into news oblivion. As appropriate political cover for those in isolationist strongholds, use Fester's Keynesian shipbuilding as an economic stimulus program. Distribute the wealth and political pork by having the lighter ships built in the Great Lakes and smaller coastal yards. Nothing like being on the receiving end of a little pork-barrel spending to overcome moral and political objections....
 
wouldn't hurt to get Andrew Higgins and Donald Roebling some money to start getting stuff into production either...this could turn out to be one of those "Penny Foolish, Pound Wise" sort of actions...
 
Top