An earlier (role for) Kingdom of Ireland

So if I understand you correctly, the Norman lords are being (half by choice) absorbed into the existing power relationship issue, and adopting Gaelic ways is just a consequence of that - they're not necessarily maintaining any sort of ties (cultural or otherwise) to England and Normandy.

And related to the issue of an Irish kingdom: Assuming the interest in making it happen, which is of course a potential killer of any attempts, would you say a later and unification of Ireland is workable?

Or was it "After 1210, and maybe even then, forget it." as a matter of making it work.

Not necessarily this Ireland being tied to England any more firmly than the lords were OTL (as a king who can really rule Ireland is a king able to tell his kin in England just what to do with their claims of overlordship even more than an earl could), just establishing it and it being able to develop as . . . whatever that would lead tor.
 
After the reformation the country was definitively crippled politically. To paraphrase Joseph Stalin, it was the Balkans in one country.

1172 was the great opportunity for England -- Henry II's conquest was facile, but more to the point, he achieved works in a few years that wouldn't be replicated for centuries. The pro-Rome faction of the church was quite powerful politically and crucially had all the skills he needed to fill out the ranks of his administration. It must be asked where he might find the money to conquer the country in detail -- the people deputised this task, the de Burghs, de Clare's etc. often cut costs by relying on local vassals -- but it would certainly have been both cheaper and more rewarding at that time than later.

(In fact even after Cromwell, the principle tenants on a lot of estates were Irish, and this was the class people like Peter Lacy, or Ambrosio (Ambrose) O'Higgins were drawn from after the post-1691 exodus... And O'Higgins purposefully chose to send his son Bernardo to an English protestant school.)

The window of opportunity was still open in John Lackland's time. He was uniquely lucky in that unlike Strongbow or de Courcy, he had the blessing of the King, his father. Anyone looking for a blood and gore horror story should so a King John of Ireland TL. Once the Irish aristocracy were totally obliterated, they would have re-emerged within a generation or two exactly as the English did under the Angevins. That would have been dramatically different from Irish history as occurred historically.

English domination of "the Isles" as a lot of Europeans call them would have been a huge challenge in those circumstances. No England as a mercantile naval power means no subsidies for continental allies, no balance of power and imaginably even a new empire in Europe, in which eventuality I'd probably be posting you this by pack mule rather than typing it on a computer.

Surrender and regrant could have been pursued at almost any time instead of getting it mixed up with the reformation. Even so, when capable, adaptable people like St Leger were in charge it was quite successful. The truth is that hanging the underlings was always one of the chief responsibilities of any English lord and the Irish Barons did not rely on the affection or loyalty of most of their tenants (whom they regarded with contempt; compare the very small number of names from the list linked to that are associated in any way with either the Irish lords or their Gallowglass retainers). A figure like St Leger could have worked wonders in 1250-1350 with even modest resources.

The problem is that there were always cranks waiting in the wings in London convinced that they could sort things out with a few hangings once the namby-pamby St Legers were out of the way. Cretins like Edward Bellingham could ruin years of patient work in an afternoon.

Pure conquest after Henry II's time would have been much more difficult whoever was in charge. There was raw hatred between city and country, and between the endless lists of feuding rulers in the countryside. Some, like the O'Byrnes and O'Tooles could hardly have been fully reformed simply because they had greatly enjoyed consequence-free banditry for generations.

If you look at the political and military situation of someone like the Gearóid Mór FitzGerald, you discover a picture as intricate and challenging as any. He was well aware that any idea of a surge of national patriotism propelling him to leadership of a united country was a fantasy. His friends as well as his rivals and enemies would have turned on him if they thought they would lose their privileges. "Disunity" as it came later to be styled was something highly desirable to most landholders in 14th-16th Century Ireland.

So it would have been difficult for England and very difficult for any Irish ruler to unite the country by force after 1200 or so. Saxon England gave the Normans a bloody fight even after having fought another hard battle just a few weeks earlier and then going on a forced march south, but was then conquered in a generation. The Danes likewise conquered half the country even though the English opposition was equally powerful then. And neither the Vikings nor the English succeeded in replicating these achievements in Ireland even though their armies didn't face opposition remotely as powerful there. This wasn't by accident.

But much of this was down to the peculiar expense of raising English armies. Had it been the Czar that was on the doorstep, more interested in glory and national power and less interested in money, the whole business would have been brief -- exactly as happened in many European countries countless times.
 
So if I understand this correctly.

After - roughly - 1210, the best bet (such as it is) involves diplomacy and judicial force, not pure conquest, but up to 1350 you could form a "Kingdom of Ireland" - although more of one made up of the Irish (pre-existing as of the attempt, not necessarily Gaelic-blooded) aristocracy rather than replacing them all with a fresh crop - that would be horrendously bloody at best.

And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_St_Leger_(Lord_Deputy_of_Ireland) is the St. Leger in question?

That sounds like an interesting basis for a kingdom of Ireland that is like Scotland, in the sense persistently troubled by the more unruly elements outside the royal lands and most cooperative (avoiding using the word "obedient" intentionally) but sturdy enough to hold together if its foundations have been secured.


I'm not sure why England dominating the British Isles eliminates it as a commercial and naval power though.
 
So if I understand this correctly.

After - roughly - 1210, the best bet (such as it is) involves diplomacy and judicial force, not pure conquest, but up to 1350 you could form a "Kingdom of Ireland" - although more of one made up of the Irish (pre-existing as of the attempt, not necessarily Gaelic-blooded) aristocracy rather than replacing them all with a fresh crop - that would be horrendously bloody at best.

And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_St_Leger_(Lord_Deputy_of_Ireland) is the St. Leger in question?

That sounds like an interesting basis for a kingdom of Ireland that is like Scotland, in the sense persistently troubled by the more unruly elements outside the royal lands and most cooperative (avoiding using the word "obedient" intentionally) but sturdy enough to hold together if its foundations have been secured.

Some good discussion.

So, in brief with the King of England as King of Ireland not much will change wrt OTL if he remains focussed on France et al as in OTL?
I'm not sure why England dominating the British Isles eliminates it as a commercial and naval power though.

Could we consider it like the Basque situation?
 
Some good discussion.

So, in brief with the King of England as King of Ireland not much will change wrt OTL if he remains focussed on France et al as in OTL?

Probably not. Although if Ireland is brought closer to the English/royal sphere in this period, that may have impacts later on - its not that far outside central control for an England determined to make things stick, its just too much of a problem if its not (as I understand it).

Could we consider it like the Basque situation?[/QUOTE]

What about the Basque situation?
 
So if I understand this correctly.

After - roughly - 1210, the best bet (such as it is) involves diplomacy and judicial force, not pure conquest, but up to 1350 you could form a "Kingdom of Ireland" - although more of one made up of the Irish (pre-existing as of the attempt, not necessarily Gaelic-blooded) aristocracy rather than replacing them all with a fresh crop - that would be horrendously bloody at best.

Well 1210 is a very rough figure, although it's noteworthy that clerical support for de Courcy's (very modest) expedition wasn't dampened in the slightest by the extreme degree of violence of Henry's original invasion.

After that, the top ranks of the Norman aristocracy did retain cultural cohesiveness much more than in England until about the time of de Bruce's ill-starred invasion, but the Gaelic lords were strengthening all the time. The FitzGeralds and their allies lost a lot of titled figures at Callan in c. 1260 and de Clare who was the (Munster) Fitzgeralds' overlord took to the offensive at a moment he thought was opportune during Bruce's invasion but got sucked into an ambush and destroyed. Bruce's main effect was to ruin huge swathes of the country, shifting the balance of power to the Gaels. After that, many strong castles fell to the Irish and more were constructed, in addition to the innumerable tower-houses that dotted the country. Only the development of effective field artillery swung matters back in England's direction.

The striking number of English names in Woulfe's list that did the English-Irish-English round-trip in the period 1200-1700 shows that the Irish systems held a lot of attractions. Poor Irish had more options than poor English -- there were generally tenancies available in English controlled lands and Irish tenants were not tied to any one master. This must have provoked some envy among English serfs. So co-opting the Irish nobles would have meant essentially turning them on their own, but this was hardly unknown either in Ireland or in Scotland.


That's the man. I don't know if he could be called 'moderate' but he was certainly more capable than the others who held the job during that period. I should have singled out Lord Grey rather than Bermingham for special criticism, but none of the others were up to much really.

That sounds like an interesting basis for a kingdom of Ireland that is like Scotland, in the sense persistently troubled by the more unruly elements outside the royal lands and most cooperative (avoiding using the word "obedient" intentionally) but sturdy enough to hold together if its foundations have been secured.

Ireland in 1500 had all of Scotland's problems, only worse.

I'm not sure why England dominating the British Isles eliminates it as a commercial and naval power though.

I'm guessing you mean "not dominating"? If so, it wouldn't stop it becoming a naval power but it would mean it would need the capacity to raise large land armies also, and the pattern of expenditure is quite different.

Rather than developing after 1200, most of the country was ruined for centuries. Strongbow and John both represented the possibility of alternatives, though speculation about the European balance of power is ultimately not so interesting as speculation about the period prior to 1172. Between ~1000 and Henry's invasion scope existed to reform the country in ways that guaranteed neither weakness in the face of invaders nor transformation into just another feudal country very grim and oppressive for the large majority of people.

If they could have gotten over their bizarre taboo against wearing armour it would have gone a long way (Irish battle chronicles usually contrasted the metal covering their cowardly enemies with lengthy passages devoted to their own quality tailoring). But the most interesting possibilities, spurned by a succession of incomprehending Kings in spite of quite significant foreign contacts and travel (pilgrimages to Rome became a fashion), involve legal reforms along the lines of Adomnán's to halt the ceaseless infighting that was the national sport.
 
Well 1210 is a very rough figure, although it's noteworthy that clerical support for de Courcy's (very modest) expedition wasn't dampened in the slightest by the extreme degree of violence of Henry's original invasion.

Yeah, I'm picking 1210 since you mentioned it - say up to a generation from 1200 is close enough.

After that, the top ranks of the Norman aristocracy did retain cultural cohesiveness much more than in England until about the time of de Bruce's ill-starred invasion, but the Gaelic lords were strengthening all the time. The FitzGeralds and their allies lost a lot of titled figures at Callan in c. 1260 and de Clare who was the (Munster) Fitzgeralds' overlord took to the offensive at a moment he thought was opportune during Bruce's invasion but got sucked into an ambush and destroyed. Bruce's main effect was to ruin huge swathes of the country, shifting the balance of power to the Gaels. After that, many strong castles fell to the Irish and more were constructed, in addition to the innumerable tower-houses that dotted the country. Only the development of effective field artillery swung matters back in England's direction.

The striking number of English names in Woulfe's list that did the English-Irish-English round-trip in the period 1200-1700 shows that the Irish systems held a lot of attractions. Poor Irish had more options than poor English -- there were generally tenancies available in English controlled lands and Irish tenants were not tied to any one master. This must have provoked some envy among English serfs. So co-opting the Irish nobles would have meant essentially turning them on their own, but this was hardly unknown either in Ireland or in Scotland.

Sounds doable. Not easy, but kingdom-making never is.

I'm guessing you mean "not dominating"? If so, it wouldn't stop it becoming a naval power but it would mean it would need the capacity to raise large land armies also, and the pattern of expenditure is quite different.

WEll, I read this;
English domination of "the Isles" as a lot of Europeans call them would have been a huge challenge in those circumstances. No England as a mercantile naval power means no subsidies for continental allies, no balance of power and imaginably even a new empire in Europe, in which eventuality I'd probably be posting you this by pack mule rather than typing it on a computer.

as you meaning that English domination of the Isles would be as opposed to OTL in some form.

Why would England need large land armies? Ireland's threat can be fended off by sea, and Scotland never needed excessively large English armies to face.

Rather than developing after 1200, most of the country was ruined for centuries. Strongbow and John both represented the possibility of alternatives, though speculation about the European balance of power is ultimately not so interesting as speculation about the period prior to 1172. Between ~1000 and Henry's invasion scope existed to reform the country in ways that guaranteed neither weakness in the face of invaders nor transformation into just another feudal country very grim and oppressive for the large majority of people.

If they could have gotten over their bizarre taboo against wearing armour it would have gone a long way (Irish battle chronicles usually contrasted the metal covering their cowardly enemies with lengthy passages devoted to their own quality tailoring). But the most interesting possibilities, spurned by a succession of incomprehending Kings in spite of quite significant foreign contacts and travel (pilgrimages to Rome became a fashion), involve legal reforms along the lines of Adomnán's to halt the ceaseless infighting that was the national sport.

Interesting.

Seems like you'd need a strong lord to make anything stick better than OTL, though.
 
For an earlier POD couldn't an ambitious and (relatively) powerful local ruler, do something similar as David Dunkeld, prince of the Cumbrians and later king of Scots?
And/or invite people and new ideas from abroad; if successful there could be two types of scenarios like IOTL Scotland or like IOTL Sicily (mercenaries/foreign help takes over).

Ofcourse he was from the local royal dynasty, could take over an existing kingdom and he had a powerful patron in king Henry I of England.

However later PODs IMHO will increase English involvement; an earlier unification or at least a High King being able to establsh his authority over the whole of Ireland, will make the possibility of Ireland's relationship with England developing in a way similar to IOTL Scotland.
 
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