An Avar "Islam"

I've been mulling over an idea in my head, and I just thought I'd share it. I have no intent to really take it further, but here goes:

Would it be possible for a steppe group, maybe the Avars or the Chionites, which had come into contact with religions like Manichaeism and Christianity, to fashion their own "Islam" like steppe religion, and then through that religion unify a larger social group (akin to an ummah) and conquer a vast swathe of central Europe starting with the Pannonian basin?

I was thinking maybe the Chionites (Red Huns) or Avars find themselves pushed East onto the Pontic Steppe, where they come into contact with Armenian missionaries from time to time. Eventually, around the time the Celestial Turks are rising in strength, a tribal leader goes off and has a revelation about the true way to worship, and from there everything gets thrown into chaos. As this new steppe religious community flees the rising power of the Turks, they bring their religion to the Slavs and central Europe.

I've got no idea what this religion would look like, either. I assume that a lot of it would just be trying to adapt Christianity the context of say, Avar culture, but would that then make it unappealing outside of a limited context? Perhaps the religion might have a large fundamentally oral component, drawing on the folklore of central asia.

[I'm only procrastinating a little on the next "White Huns" update. Promise.]
 

spendabuck

Banned
I guess maybe a tengriism-Christianity combo maybe?
That would probably be the basis of it; perhaps it could also incorporate elements from Slavic paganism (so, Tengri=Christian God, with various other gods in Tengriism/the Slavic pantheon being angels?)?
 
Is it just me, or does Tengriism have way more discussions here on it becoming an organised religion? I'm not so sure why. But on the other hand, it's plausible. There really are people in history like Muhammad who reshaped the world by their influence, so I don't see what would stop this Avar individual if he were in contact with the right people from creating his own concept. There would definitely be influences of Christianity, though.

One issue though is that didn't the Tengriists worship a particular mountain in the Tian Shan range (I still find it odd that "天" isn't related to "Tengri", at least not directly)? There aren't a lot of mountains in Hungary/Avaria, meaning they'll have to find a new mountain to worship. There were a couple of sacred mountains to the Slavs, though.

It could always have a limited appeal, but maybe not--I mean, isn't the majority of the Bible based on the tales of the Jews/Israelites? Not to mention many interpretations of Islam suggest emulating Arab culture in the form of that which existed in Muhammad's time. It could be rationalised as applying to far more than just one group of people.
 
To be fair, the exact thing I was trying to avoid was an organized Tengri worshiping religion. The idea was something that could at least be plausibly considered Abrahamaic, not some sort of Tengri-reformed faith.
 
To be fair, the exact thing I was trying to avoid was an organized Tengri worshiping religion. The idea was something that could at least be plausibly considered Abrahamaic, not some sort of Tengri-reformed faith.

So something like how Judaism (and Christianity) worships Yahweh, a Canaanite god, or Islam worships Allah, who's basically the same as Yahweh, just using the Arabic cognate of "El" as his name? Your god name would be a variant of Tengri, but religiously you want something that's still Abrahamic? Like syncreticism gone even more native? And very unpalatable to Christians and Jews?

I think in that case, post-conquest Maya religion is more of an example, with the god "Hunab Ku" who is basically the Christian God but plenty of local beliefs that make Maya Christianity very distinct.
 
To some extent, an Abrahamisation of the Mongols did occur OTL. Just as catholic priests wrote about the Irish being descendants of a lost tribe of Israel, or that Baldr was actually a misunderstanding of Christ, Muslims tried to appeal to the Mongols by addressing their ancestor worship, saying that they were descendants of Abraham and Keturah (Abrahams second wife) and that Tengriism is just a misunderstanding of Islam.

I know it's past whena you originally said, but all you need here is for someone to take advantage of this and proclaim themselves a new prophet for a new age.

The more I think about it, the more interesting an idea. The Mongols would probably have a harder time holding everything together, but could reasonably have a bit more cultural unity of someone pulled it off... Even more so if they successfully convert the Turks and make them more loyal to the greater Mongol identity.
 
I've been mulling over an idea in my head, and I just thought I'd share it. I have no intent to really take it further, but here goes:

Would it be possible for a steppe group, maybe the Avars or the Chionites, which had come into contact with religions like Manichaeism and Christianity, to fashion their own "Islam" like steppe religion, and then through that religion unify a larger social group (akin to an ummah) and conquer a vast swathe of central Europe starting with the Pannonian basin?

I was thinking maybe the Chionites (Red Huns) or Avars find themselves pushed East onto the Pontic Steppe, where they come into contact with Armenian missionaries from time to time. Eventually, around the time the Celestial Turks are rising in strength, a tribal leader goes off and has a revelation about the true way to worship, and from there everything gets thrown into chaos. As this new steppe religious community flees the rising power of the Turks, they bring their religion to the Slavs and central Europe.

I've got no idea what this religion would look like, either. I assume that a lot of it would just be trying to adapt Christianity the context of say, Avar culture, but would that then make it unappealing outside of a limited context? Perhaps the religion might have a large fundamentally oral component, drawing on the folklore of central asia.
If I remember correctly, Muhammad draw inspiration from his Arabian background, from Christianism but also from Judaism. I was thinking that without an exposure to two relatively proselityzing religions, both claiming to be the only truth, your Avar would make an heretic/paganist flavor of Christianism rather than something compeltely new: the presence of Judaism would have ensured that Christianism would be looked that more critically, thus making your Avar religion more independant of Christianity. That beign said, there was some Jews in the steppe...
 
Is it just me, or does Tengriism have way more discussions here on it becoming an organised religion? I'm not so sure why. But on the other hand, it's plausible. There really are people in history like Muhammad who reshaped the world by their influence, so I don't see what would stop this Avar individual if he were in contact with the right people from creating his own concept. There would definitely be influences of Christianity, though.

One issue though is that didn't the Tengriists worship a particular mountain in the Tian Shan range (I still find it odd that "天" isn't related to "Tengri", at least not directly)? There aren't a lot of mountains in Hungary/Avaria, meaning they'll have to find a new mountain to worship. There were a couple of sacred mountains to the Slavs, though.

It could always have a limited appeal, but maybe not--I mean, isn't the majority of the Bible based on the tales of the Jews/Israelites? Not to mention many interpretations of Islam suggest emulating Arab culture in the form of that which existed in Muhammad's time. It could be rationalised as applying to far more than just one group of people.

It is because of Crusader Kings II - they are the most developed non-Norse pagan religion and reform the easiest.

teg
 
It is because of Crusader Kings II - they are the most developed non-Norse pagan religion and reform the easiest.

teg

Yes, that is true, but still. CKII is a very fun game, but it is as realistic as simulation of real life as Call of Duty is a realistic war simulation.
 
I was always a Total War fan myself.

Also fun, and I credit Rome Total War Barbarian Invasion for encouraging my interest in so many historical topics. I still need to one of these days mod the game so the "Berber" faction in that game is closer to reality than to some random Arabs as they are in the game. But it still isn't realistic, it still isn't how things were, etc.
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
Also fun, and I credit Rome Total War Barbarian Invasion for encouraging my interest in so many historical topics. I still need to one of these days mod the game so the "Berber" faction in that game is closer to reality than to some random Arabs as they are in the game. But it still isn't realistic, it still isn't how things were, etc.
I don't even think they were a playable faction. Any way barbarian invasion is an amazing game.
 
I've been mulling over an idea in my head, and I just thought I'd share it. I have no intent to really take it further, but here goes:

Would it be possible for a steppe group, maybe the Avars or the Chionites, which had come into contact with religions like Manichaeism and Christianity, to fashion their own "Islam" like steppe religion, and then through that religion unify a larger social group (akin to an ummah) and conquer a vast swathe of central Europe starting with the Pannonian basin?

I was thinking maybe the Chionites (Red Huns) or Avars find themselves pushed East onto the Pontic Steppe, where they come into contact with Armenian missionaries from time to time. Eventually, around the time the Celestial Turks are rising in strength, a tribal leader goes off and has a revelation about the true way to worship, and from there everything gets thrown into chaos. As this new steppe religious community flees the rising power of the Turks, they bring their religion to the Slavs and central Europe.

I've got no idea what this religion would look like, either. I assume that a lot of it would just be trying to adapt Christianity the context of say, Avar culture, but would that then make it unappealing outside of a limited context? Perhaps the religion might have a large fundamentally oral component, drawing on the folklore of central asia.

[I'm only procrastinating a little on the next "White Huns" update. Promise.]

I've mulled over the possibility of a "steppe Muhammad" myself a few times. Unfortunately, I just don't think it's plausible. The thing about Islam is that it isn't a Bedouin religion. It was an urban religion created by a merchant-prince. Arabs in the coastal states of the Arabian peninsula already had a rich and sophisticated urban culture. Religious revelations don't come out of nowhere. The time Muhammad was living in was overflowing with prophets and this is because the situation encouraged them. Same with the time of Jesus and other times in which prophets pop up.

Nomadic groups like the Avars on the other hand, never really live in those kinds of environments. As far as I know, there haven't ever been nomadic prophets. Even a figure like Genghis Khan who united the Mongols and tried to build something lasting was much more in favor of religious tolerance instead of spreading a religion. That's because nomadic culture is much more suited towards that (see other steppe empires like the Khazars for example. ).

Maybe you could do something with the sedentary people of Central Asia in Samarkand and other rich,cultured oasis cities. I'm unsure if you can cause prophet-friendly conditions there though.
 
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