An AngloFrench union but both divided

[The Professor]

Basically, the situation is that the Crowns of England and France are united but both are disputed to the extent that the AngloFrench dynasty have neither Northern England nor Southern France (which are under rival claimants).

How do we get here?
What's the status of Wales, Lordship of Ireland (the Pale), and Navarre?
Where are the boundaries of held territory best placed?
Are these rival claimants also holders of territory external to England and/or France?
Please discuss...

 

[Brita]

When would the POD be?
14th century could do, I think. Edward III manages to be acknowledged King of France, with Philippe de Valois as the French pretender. A cadet branch of the English royal family, fearing Edward's sudden increase of power, later claims Northern England. It could be either Thomas de Brotherton and his descendants or John of Eltham if he lives.

The main difficulty here is that Edward already holds part of Southern France as Duke of Aquitaine, so the only way I can see Valois getting the Duchy - when he himself holds estates in Northern France - is if he allies with Navarre.

A few ideas:
1) John of Eltham marries John III of Brittany's niece and heiress Joan of Penthièvre. Edward's got a continental ally in the West.
2) Philippe de Valois allies with Jeanne II, Queen of Navarre - maybe he can arrange a marriage between some of their children. It would lead to Edward's later losing Aquitaine.
3) If Thomas de Bortherton rebels, he can marry one of his daughters to Owain Lawgoch in order to stir the Welsh into rebelling as well.

 

[The Professor]

Interesting.

When would the POD be?

One of the important questions is which POD could be best.
Any marriage of an English king prior to the 1320s could work.
Alternatively you have a French king inheriting.
Or via rebellion etc. E.g. Louis Capet the unnumbered temporary King of England, son of Philippe II Auguste.

 

[kasumigenx]

If Edward III gains the French throne, he will annex Provence from Naples to France, as he gave his claims to Provence to John of Gaunt IOTL.

 

[Brita]

Interesting.

One of the important questions is which POD could be best.
Any marriage of an English king prior to the 1320s could work.
Alternatively you have a French king inheriting.
Or via rebellion etc. E.g. Louis Capet the unnumbered temporary King of England, son of Philippe II Auguste.

I found two other possibilities last evening:
POD in the 1450s.
- Henri VI dies in or soon after 1453 and Richard of York seizes the throne, imprisoning his widow and son.
- He defeats the French and regains Normandy and maybe a few other Northern territories.
- Dauphin Louis is killed in battle and Richard later deposes Charles VII and is crowned King of France.
- Charles's youngest son Charles, Duke of Berry, becomes the French pretender and gains support in Southern parts of France, while in Scotland, James II, as John of Gaunt's descendant, claims the English throne - Margaret Beaufort's wedding to Edmund Tudor having been butterflied by Henry VI's death.

POD in the 1210s.
- Philippe II Auguste's son Louis is crowned King of England
- John doesn't contract dysentery and eventually manages to flee to Aquitaine with his wife and children.
- John and Raymond VI of Toulouse become allies.
- Later, Alexander II, not too fond of having a neighbour holding both England and Northern France, claims England - either as Margaret of Wessex's descendant or maybe in Eleanor of Brittany's name (but this is unlikely, he'd first have to free her and Louis's going to keep an eye on her, since her claim's stronger than his own wife's).

 

[The Professor]

I found two other possibilities last evening:
POD in the 1450s.
- Henri VI dies in or soon after 1453 and Richard of York seizes the throne, imprisoning his widow and son.
- He defeats the French and regains Normandy and maybe a few other Northern territories.
- Dauphin Louis is killed in battle and Richard later deposes Charles VII and is crowned King of France.
- Charles's youngest son Charles, Duke of Berry, becomes the French pretender and gains support in Southern parts of France, while in Scotland, James II, as John of Gaunt's descendant, claims the English throne - Margaret Beaufort's wedding to Edmund Tudor having been butterflied by Henry VI's death.

POD in the 1210s.
- Philippe II Auguste's son Louis is crowned King of England
- John doesn't contract dysentery and eventually manages to flee to Aquitaine with his wife and children.
- John and Raymond VI of Toulouse become allies.
- Later, Alexander II, not too fond of having a neighbour holding both England and Northern France, claims England - either as Margaret of Wessex's descendant or maybe in Eleanor of Brittany's name (but this is unlikely, he'd first have to free her and Louis's going to keep an eye on her, since her claim's stronger than his own wife's).

Ooh some nice ones.

 

[kasumigenx]

Or rather have Louis VIII marry Eleanor of Brittany for starters.

 

[The Professor]

@isabella @BlueFlowwer @Kellan Sullivan @VVD0D95 @Cate @kaiidth thoughts?

 

[VVD0D95]

A part of me is tempted to go for what Mortimer, Percy and Owain were planning, but that is sans northern France so am unsure

 

[Cate13]

For a later POD you could have either

a) Henry VII does not marry Elizabeth of York and then somehow manages to conquer England anyway, along with part of France? Then the Yorkists could hold Northern England and the Valois's Southern France.

b) Henry VIII manages to conquer quite a bit more of France during one of the many times he tried. (more than he did OTL anyway) Then after his and Edward's death Mary gets the North of England and Elizabeth gets the Anglo-French thrown and a marriage to one of the French princes. Then Henri de Bourbon could take Navarre and the Southern France because he's willing to convert to Catholicism while Elizabeth and her heirs are protestant.

 

[Peppe]

For an earlier POD, maybe William the Conqueror doesn't manage to conquer the north, who remains under an Anglo-Saxon monarch and later the Plantagenets manage to take control of northern France while Aquitaine and Toulouse remain independent under the control of the French Kings (maybe have the Normands remain as OTL until Henry II, but Eleanor of Aquitaine manages to have children with her first husband and after they lose the north they flee to Aquitaine)

 

[Cate13]

Or.... Mary Tudor’s marriage to Louis XII produces children, maybe a boy and a girl. The boy becomes king as Louis’s death and rules for a bit and at his death England backs his sister as Queen of France over Charles and eventually this line inherits England.

 

[Brita]

Or.... Mary Tudor’s marriage to Louis XII produces children, maybe a boy and a girl. The boy becomes king as Louis’s death and rules for a bit and at his death England backs his sister as Queen of France over Charles and eventually this line inherits England.

Not sure who Charles is here...
But the main problem would be that even if girls had a chance to succeed in France, Mary Tudor's daughter - let's call her Marie - has two elder half-sisters with children of their own whose claim would be superior.
Alternatively, let's say that while Marie's claim is supported in Northern France and by Henry VIII in England - maybe he can invade part of France while supporting her - Claude and François hold Southern France and Renée can be married to Henry II of Navarre if Louis XII's son and heir dies before 1526.

Louis XII m. a) Joan of France b) Anne of Brittany c) Mary Tudor
1 b) Claude of France (b.1499) m. Francis of Angouleme
2 b) Renée of France (b.1510) m. Henry II of Navarre
3 c) Charles IX of France (b.1515) (dies without issue)
4 c) Marie of France (b.1515)

Don't know who Marie would marry here. Maybe an English match?