An American Oddity

[George Washington]

Mason continued speaking, "Congress is split into two pieces. A House of Representatives, where each state will be divided into districts of 250,000 people with one representative per, and a Senate, where each state gets two votes. Then, a Executive Congress, made up of a spokesman, called the chairman, the Constitutional Chairman, who checks laws for constitutionality, and a Chair of State, Treasury, War, Justice, Interior, and on and on. Finally, a Supreme Court with seven justices. For Justices, the House proposes them to the Chair of Justice."

Madison and Mason where nodding away. "I don't know what to do about adding in new states, though." Mason said.

Washington didn't care. "This is a brilliant plan. It is time we propose it to the delegates.

When James Madison opened the doors for the older men, all three where horrified by what they saw. Alexander Hamilton was in a fistfight with Thomas Jefferson, with a bloody Abraham Baldwin on the floor. Once Jefferson caught view of Washington he stopped, utterly embarrassed. Hamilton got in a punch before he saw Washington, and both men scrambled to their seats.

It took Washington a second to look more like a person than a ghost again, as he began to speak. "Well, Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Jefferson, this is a gentlemanly meeting, not a fist fight. Aside from these men's immaturity..." everyone took a brief moment to laugh, then Washington nodded at Mason.

"Go Ahead."

 

[Lusitania]

I thought it was time for this thread to live up to its name. A special thank you to @Lusitania, @Wendell, @galanx, @Jeff Goldplum, @Igeo654, and @[totally a legit person] for support and/or constructive criticism

Ok I guess all my constructive criticism was for naught since you have ignored everything I said and not changed your storyline and are going about a fantasy TL so I am abandoning it.

 

[Wendell]

True, but remember, the Americans had disrespected the Proclamation of 1763 bluntly, and there where British people on both sides of the conflict. I, too, like and respect @Lusitania. A three way war helps my cause in the fact that Spain is in self-defense, Britain is putting down a rebellion and fighting of Spaniards in Florida, while everyone else is trying to expand their empires and get rid of Spain and Britain from America (although, again, Portugal only wants Spain gone.)

FLORIDA WAS BRITISH IN the 1770s. Spain would not be fighting for self-defense in Florida and has multiple territorial gripes with Britain, including over traditionally Spanish territory in Europe (Minorca and Gibraltar). It's plausible to keep Spain out of the war. It's plausible for Spain in alliance with France to fight against Britain. It's not plausible for Spain to intervene in this war effectively on the same side as Britain against the Thirteen Colonies.

There is no alliance

A three sided war makes even less sense.

Me as well. Almost any alternative to change alliances would result in no ARW. I feel this POD does fine.

Nothing suggests that you agree with this sentiment.

 

[George Washington]

Ok I guess all my constructive criticism was for naught since you have ignored everything I said and not changed your storyline and are going about a fantasy TL so I am abandoning it.

1. Spain fights against Britain rather than with her.
2. In the next war, Portugal ditches for Britain.

FLORIDA WAS BRITISH IN the 1770s. Spain would not be fighting for self-defense in Florida and has multiple territorial gripes with Britain, including over traditionally Spanish territory in Europe (Minorca and Gibraltar). It's plausible to keep Spain out of the war. It's plausible for Spain in alliance with France to fight against Britain. It's not plausible for Spain to intervene in this war effectively on the same side as Britain against the Thirteen Colonies.



A three sided war makes even less sense.



Nothing suggests that you agree with this sentiment.

1. Yes, Florida was British. Spain was trying to take it back
2. Self-defense over Louisiana, Caribbean, South America, Mexico
3. Spain won't want America or Britain to win, both end badly for Spain
4. A British victory and a lot of money needed to be dumped into 7 years war to make the ARW. Also, this is assuming Britain doesn't back off after Boston Tea Party, Boston Massacre, or anything else that happened in Boston.
5. In the next war at least (probably longer) Spain will be like Switzerland.

 

[George Washington]

I don't know why that map attached

 

[George Washington]

To @Wendell and @Lusitania, what do you think of the new government? Also, any better names than what I've used? I feel like the titles I have are pretty bad.

 

[Lusitania]

1. Spain fights against Britain rather than with her.
2. In the next war, Portugal ditches for Britain.

1. Yes, Florida was British. Spain was trying to take it back
2. Self-defense over Louisiana, Caribbean, South America, Mexico
3. Spain won't want America or Britain to win, both end badly for Spain
4. A British victory and a lot of money needed to be dumped into 7 years war to make the ARW. Also, this is assuming Britain doesn't back off after Boston Tea Party, Boston Massacre, or anything else that happened in Boston.
5. In the next war at least (probably longer) Spain will be like Switzerland.

listen Portugal does not cannot and will not ditch Britain to suggest such means you do not grasp anything of European politics and especially the relationship of Britain and Portugal that have the oldest alliance in history. Still in affect.

Ok I am getting very frustrated re-iterating the same thing over and over.

Forget Florida it means nothing to the Spanish. I keep saying but it feels that I am talking to wall or at least the wall would listen, not understand but listen. You have not taken the time to study and read. If you had read you would realize that British occupation and control over Gibraltar and Minorca is the 1770 was by regarded by Spain as the biggest Spanish objective. It was the reason it joined the war against Britain during the ARW. For you to state France going to invade Spain and Spain going to join Britain in war against France which accounts for alliance is completely not understanding reality.

for you then to state Portugal fights Spain is again completely hogwash. Portugal had 5,000 half equiped soldiers on the Iberian peninsula and 1,000 militia in Brazil. What the heck is Portugal going to do with that.

listen I not trying to offend you but after I repeatedly provided you with tons of information and reasons to indicate your premises for the TL were incorrect and you ignored and dismissed everything I said it showed me you had no intention of taking advice and had no knowledge of history I decided to ditch the TL. That you brought me back and made no corrections or adjustments but simply try to forge forward.

If you like my input I am willing but only if you going to write a TL that is realistic not fantasy.

 

[George Washington]

listen Portugal does not cannot and will not ditch Britain to suggest such means you do not grasp anything of European politics and especially the relationship of Britain and Portugal that have the oldest alliance in history. Still in affect.

Ok I am getting very frustrated re-iterating the same thing over and over.

Forget Florida it means nothing to the Spanish. I keep saying but it feels that I am talking to wall or at least the wall would listen, not understand but listen. You have not taken the time to study and read. If you had read you would realize that British occupation and control over Gibraltar and Minorca is the 1770 was by regarded by Spain as the biggest Spanish objective. It was the reason it joined the war against Britain during the ARW. For you to state France going to invade Spain and Spain going to join Britain in war against France which accounts for alliance is completely not understanding reality.

for you then to state Portugal fights Spain is again completely hogwash. Portugal had 5,000 half equiped soldiers on the Iberian peninsula and 1,000 militia in Brazil. What the heck is Portugal going to do with that.

listen I not trying to offend you but after I repeatedly provided you with tons of information and reasons to indicate your premises for the TL were incorrect and you ignored and dismissed everything I said it showed me you had no intention of taking advice and had no knowledge of history I decided to ditch the TL. That you brought me back and made no corrections or adjustments but simply try to forge forward.

If you like my input I am willing but only if you going to write a TL that is realistic not fantasy.

Portugal goes to Britain, sorry about my choice of wording.

I can forget Spain attacking Florida, give me a few days to make that edit.

If it would make more sense, I can have Spain attack Minorca and Giltrabar.

France will no longer invade Spain.

Forgeting anything?

 

[Wendell]

A country's lands and colonies are put under threat when wars are joined. Seldom if ever are wars joined or instigated on the pretext of defending what one already has.

 

[Lusitania]

Portugal goes to Britain, sorry about my choice of wording.

I can forget Spain attacking Florida, give me a few days to make that edit.

If it would make more sense, I can have Spain attack Minorca and Giltrabar.

France will no longer invade Spain.

Forgeting anything?

Ok before I get back into following the TL there few questions I have.

1) what is the purpose of getting French Québécois involved? They be a very strange bedfellow in any constitutional convention. They would at least want much more state rights and any US be governed by articles instead of constitution. They even ally with those states who advocated to articles.
2) the war will probably be just as long as iotl as Spain be fighting Britain in trying to regain Gibraltar. France be in same pickle. Portugal sits on sidelines and British with their resources continue to fight until it looks like their forces are doomed.
3) remember France was no real friend of the US since their objective was to weaken Britain not to free and strengthen an adversary to their interest in North America.
4) Spain no friend too since a strong US would be a threat to its interests in North America too.
5) US government at end of war is almost bankrupt and deeply in debt so much it disbanded its army. Also all states were against federal troops since they viewed it as tantamount to an enemy force that could be used against them. Remember it took the loss of 1812 for opinion to change and states allow federal troops in their borders.
6) Quebec if not happy or satisfied with protection for Catholicism and french language (meaning part of federal government has to be in French, otherwise if they have to be part of English country and have English shoved down their throats they stayed with British. So Quebec could go independent and nothing rest of US states or former colonies could do. No one going to send troops into another state. There is no standing federal army.
7) remember you have large states and small states who have very little in common other than geography and language. They each have their own economies and interests. That why northern states supported tariffs to allow their industry to grow while southern were against it because it increased the price of things they wanted to import since they main industry was agricultural products for export.
8) the 13 former colonies have more differences than in common. It was only much later that people referenced themselves as Americans before stating their state which was their first allegiance. You can’t force a government against people who just fought against a government they despised and felt did not defend their interests. So a government imposed by George Washington or anyone else be rejected by majority if not all. It has to be a government their have a hand in creating otherwise at least half the states go their own way.

anyway points to consider

 

[George Washington]

Ok before I get back into following the TL there few questions I have.

1) what is the purpose of getting French Québécois involved? They be a very strange bedfellow in any constitutional convention. They would at least want much more state rights and any US be governed by articles instead of constitution. They even ally with those states who advocated to articles.
2) the war will probably be just as long as iotl as Spain be fighting Britain in trying to regain Gibraltar. France be in same pickle. Portugal sits on sidelines and British with their resources continue to fight until it looks like their forces are doomed.
3) remember France was no real friend of the US since their objective was to weaken Britain not to free and strengthen an adversary to their interest in North America.
4) Spain no friend too since a strong US would be a threat to its interests in North America too.
5) US government at end of war is almost bankrupt and deeply in debt so much it disbanded its army. Also all states were against federal troops since they viewed it as tantamount to an enemy force that could be used against them. Remember it took the loss of 1812 for opinion to change and states allow federal troops in their borders.
6) Quebec if not happy or satisfied with protection for Catholicism and french language (meaning part of federal government has to be in French, otherwise if they have to be part of English country and have English shoved down their throats they stayed with British. So Quebec could go independent and nothing rest of US states or former colonies could do. No one going to send troops into another state. There is no standing federal army.
7) remember you have large states and small states who have very little in common other than geography and language. They each have their own economies and interests. That why northern states supported tariffs to allow their industry to grow while southern were against it because it increased the price of things they wanted to import since they main industry was agricultural products for export.
8) the 13 former colonies have more differences than in common. It was only much later that people referenced themselves as Americans before stating their state which was their first allegiance. You can’t force a government against people who just fought against a government they despised and felt did not defend their interests. So a government imposed by George Washington or anyone else be rejected by majority if not all. It has to be a government their have a hand in creating otherwise at least half the states go their own way.

anyway points to consider

Point 1) They fought in the war, that's why they are involved. It makes sense that they would team up with the pro-Articles states.
Point 2) Possible, but I doubt that it would because of the six-month prep time the U.S. had. Britain looks doomed earlier, and fighting had stopped in 1781 anyway IOTL.
Point 3) noted
Point 4) noted
Point 5) noted, though I don't think SC or other confederate states approved of those troops in the 1860's
Point 6) noted, and the First American Civil War will be Protestants v. Catholics (and Mormons, Adventist, and other reform groups not liked by the Protestants) in the 1840's in the fallout of the 2nd Great Awakening. However, Quebec is somewhat comfortable because Maryland is highly Catholic, and New England and Pennsylvania (and Delaware too, but Delaware is historically unimportant in my opinion) where founded by religious minorities.
Point 7) noted, thinking about a major edit.
Point 8) noted, may change the format it is presented in.

This already contains the Great Compromise, so I think large v. small states is sidelined, but probably best to have Roger Sherman propose it like IOTL. The Constitution will be in English and French ITTL, but when I type it up, it will only be in English (sorry, don't know French). Forgot about the states rights thing, got caught up in my own head. This plan will be heavily debated (ITTL, but if you want to debate it, feel free) in future edits/posts.

Thank you.

 

[George Washington]

Mason finished.

Alexander Hamilton looked mad. "What! There is no one authority, one king, president, magistrate! This is going to be a political madhouse! How would we even elect these people?!"

Roger Sherman also saw concern. "In one house of Congress, Virginia, New York and Massachusetts will rule the world. I don't like this."

Jean Baptiste from Quebec also spoke up. "How will we make sure religious groups, such as us Catholics, are protected?

Madison spoke last, trying to easy the concerns. "Here is some structure for our Constitution. A Preamble, Seven Articles, and Signatures. Article 1 will regulate Congress, 2 the Executive Council, 3 the Supreme Court, 4 the states, how they are added, there relationships to each other, 5 how the document is amended, 6 individual rights, 7 what needed for ratification. Let's start debating the Preamble. I have an idea."

After a brief pause, Madison presented his idea for the Preamble. "We, the People, of the United States of America, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty and freedoms from tyranny to ourselves and our prosperity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America."

It was generally accepted, so a vote was called. Of the 60 delegates, all except Abraham Baldwin halfheartedly voted in favor of it. They moved on to Article 1.

Roger Sherman stood. "I propose a one-house Congress with two votes granted to each state."

Madison stood in disgust. "This would make Delaware citizens twelve times more powerful in Congress than Virginia! Two houses, with proportional representation in each."

Washington had enough. "Stop fighting! We never would have won the revolution if we all fought separately. Mason proposed a two-house legislature with a Senate with two votes a state and a House of Representatives with several based on the states population. Is that not satisfactory?"

"No." Sherman and Madison said, ashamed that Washington had to silence them.

"What should the powers of each house be?"

Hamilton was quick to speak, "Either house can make any law not dissolving the union."

Jefferson responded, "No! Both houses must agree on laws. Taxes require a 80% approval, other laws 60%, and must be restricted to just laws regarding affairs of state, legal laws for the safety of individuals, and affairs of internal and external defense. It should also have a laize faire policy on economics. Everything must be limited."

Washington slumped in his seat, no longer trying to break up fights.

These men split into factions and fought for days. After 11 days of fighting, Mason broke up the fight. "Give broad, yet restricted power that must be approved by 50%, taxes 60%, and both houses must approve.

Article 1, complete. Now for the rest of the madhouse... the other 6.

 

[George Washington]

"The Executive powers should lie in the hands of Congress!" Sherman proclaimed.

"No, it should lie in the hands of a King!" Hamilton proclaimed.

Technically, Sherman's plan should have won out because it could pass 9 of the 14 states, but without New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, the Union would be crippled.

"Would an elected king work?" Madison said.

"NO!" They each said in unison.

"Is everyone alright with separating the Executive and Legislative Powers? This Constitution in all its forms could be designed so Congress makes sure the Executive stays in line, as well as the Courts, and vise versa."

Hamilton and Madison nod, still 100% against each others plans

"Now, lets vote like gentleman. Should a Congress, with a different name to avoid confusing, execute laws, or should one person?"

Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Quebec vote for multiple people. Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania voted to have one person execute laws.

Baptiste spoke 'Real quick, can I just make sure all laws will be in English and French?"

Colonists had no problem with this.

"Now, this seems like Mr. Masons plan. Should we go with his on the subject?"

Colonists nodded again.

 

[George Washington]

Much was agreed upon for the remainder of the meeting. No one disagreed with Masons plan for the rest of what was proposed. However, Benjamin Franklin left a very important mark on the meeting.

He proposed a four-step status for territories to become states. First, all new territory would be split into ten or so territories, then small bits would break off to become smaller territories. Once a smaller territory reached 12,000 residents, with a single city of 2,500, it could become a Commonwealth. Once a Commonwealth reaches 60,000 residents with a single city of 10,000, it could become a state. The colonies and Quebec where instantly granted state status, while Vermont, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Maine and other territories where commonwealths until Congress could vote on them becoming states. The Constitution was signed September 14th, 1782, with just enough time to ponder the first election.

 

[George Washington]

The New Constitution has to be approved by 9 of the 14 states. Some states jumped right on board, including Massachusetts, Delaware, and New Hampshire, who liked the amount of power given to their states. However, New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey all questioned how little power their was. The South and Quebec jumped on later, seeing that slavery and religion where protected. Eight states. Maryland and Connecticut both heavily debated ratifying it. Thanks to letters written by George Washington, they voted for it. New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, and Rhode Island considered voting it, but too ratified it. Even the Republic of Vermont joined in, due to the proposed ticket for the oligarchy:

Executive President (tasked with representing America, votes on laws to prevent mob rule, and is the face of the country): George Washington

Constitutional Advisor (approves Constitutionality of laws): George Mason

Chair of State (executes laws concerning state, advices Congress, and has the final vote on laws relating to state.): Thomas Jefferson

Chair of Treasury (executes laws concerning finance, advices Congress, and has the final vote on laws relating to finance.): Alexander Hamilton

Chair of Justice (similar to Chair of State and Treasury except they regulate the courts. Also appoints Justices.): John Jay

Chair of Defense: Henry Knox

Chair of the Interior: John Adams

 

[Lusitania]

Sorry I cannot see the states giving power to the federal government. The post ARW was about state power and weak federal government with little to no power. I cannot see how even 9 states would vote for this for it went against what the people in the various states believed.

Have just visited Philadelphia and visited several of the museums and the people involved represented the interested of the states sbd would not of given any rights to the federal government which in many options was akin to giving power to London.

 

[George Washington]

The Articles of Confederation hardly ever ruled the US, but for the brief time they did, it caused a lot of trouble. Once the war ended in the Battle of Havana, things where supposed to get back to normal. However, Massachusetts was feeling a split. The Western half of the state was primarily agrarian. The East was a merchant community centered around Boston. When Veterans of the American Revolution returned home, they found themselves with dysfunctional farms and no way to pay for their debts. Many where angry at being locked up by the nation they helped to create. They peacefully protested for months, then started taking over the courts. Massachusetts quickly put down the rebellion led by Daniel Shays.

However, it was contagious. Virginia, South Carolina, Quebec, and New Hampshire all experienced similar rebellions. There was a consensus among the states: a new government would be needed to protect the states. The Congress had tried to pass laws to stop the rebellions, but no state enforced them because they where dealing with the rebels. The nation was on the fringe of collapse. Philadelphia would host a Constitutional Convention to dissolve of the Articles and create a new, more effective government.

 

[George Washington]

Sorry guys, can’t move that last thread mark right now. Will do tomorrow.

Sorry I cannot see the states giving power to the federal government. The post ARW was about state power and weak federal government with little to no power. I cannot see how even 9 states would vote for this for it went against what the people in the various states believed.

Have just visited Philadelphia and visited several of the museums and the people involved represented the interested of the states sbd would not of given any rights to the federal government which in many options was akin to giving power to London.

Good enough to solve that problem? Rough equivalent of Shays rebellion IOTL.

 

[Lusitania]

Sorry guys, can’t move that last thread mark right now. Will do tomorrow.


Good enough to solve that problem? Rough equivalent of Shays rebellion IOTL.

Then you have 13 colonies fighting each other. That the 13 former colonies even joined together was a minor miracle. The constitution was a compromise that everyone felt they had a hand in writing and contributed. The people will not accept a government imposed on them. But it’s your TL I will leave

 

[George Washington]

Then you have 13 colonies fighting each other. That the 13 former colonies even joined together was a minor miracle. The constitution was a compromise that everyone felt they had a hand in writing and contributed. The people will not accept a government imposed on them. But it’s your TL I will leave

I think there is a misunderstanding here, the states are each in there own civil war and know banning together will solve this problem