An Alternate WWI

In the near future, I plan on starting an alternate history work placed during World War One with the intent of making sure that America enters the war on the side of the Germans and Austrians. However, I need a good deal of help on the political portions. Because I doubt I could convincingly write a "for want of a nail" story, I'm looking for any things I could change to make it seem plausible. Some items I'm looking at are:

- Making the Lustania get sunk while flying false colors
- Have the Germans intercept an order to Canada to begin creating formations of troops and posting them along the US/Canada boarder on the St. Lawrence
- Have American ships conducting trade with Scandinavia get sunk from the British mining of the North Sea.
- Have American ships subjected to unlawful search and seizure at Gibraltar.
- Have American assets in the Pacific aggressed by the Japanese.
- The English intercepting diplomatic messages by wiretap or other means.
- General Triple Entente obstructionism (Here's to you, Foch!)


So, as underdeveloped fic disscussion goes here, can any of you all help me out?
 

Don Quijote

Banned
The main thing will be to get America to join the Central Powers before Germany begins unrestricted submarine warfare, and to change American perceptions of German aggression. Make them believe that Germany is fighting a defensive war. However, even with that change, you probably need a POD of around 1895, and an escalation of the Venezuelan crisis between the UK and USA.
 

tenthring

Banned
So long as there is money in the Entente winning, the USA will join the Entente. You have to find a way to change that.
 
The main thing will be to get America to join the Central Powers before Germany begins unrestricted submarine warfare, and to change American perceptions of German aggression. Make them believe that Germany is fighting a defensive war. However, even with that change, you probably need a POD of around 1895, and an escalation of the Venezuelan crisis between the UK and USA.

Alright, got that down. I think I can work a few things to that effect- some yellow journalism about English and French colonies versus the Germans, Venezuela Crisis isn't handled without the kidskin gloves, maybe some other items to stir up the pot.


So long as there is money in the Entente winning, the USA will join the Entente. You have to find a way to change that.

Move money around? Hoo boy. I'm not exactly a professor, but I do know that England and France were mortgaged to the hilt on everything. Now all I need to do is make the US not give them the assorted extensions and debt forgiveness that happened in OTL
 
Maybe you could make into some kind of anti-imperialism crusade. After all, the British and the French have the biggest empires at the time. Of course if the US favors the Germans this would have an impact on our relations with Canada. Perhaps instead of a Zimmerman telegram something like a Winston telegram?
 
One of the big things keeping the US on the Entente side was that Germany was authoritarian while the Entente was generally free. If Fredrick III lived till lets say 1898 and was then succeeded by Wilhelm II then the German Empire would be more liberal than OTL. Also you'd have to make France more autocratic. Having Russia and Britain declare war in their own right instead of Germany doing so and over Belgium respectively would help as well.
 
Maybe you could make into some kind of anti-imperialism crusade. After all, the British and the French have the biggest empires at the time. Of course if the US favors the Germans this would have an impact on our relations with Canada. Perhaps instead of a Zimmerman telegram something like a Winston telegram?

No, I don't want to end up doing that too much. There's going to be a LOT of breaking of empires at the end, because part of the scenario is getting Wilson's 14 points instituted without leaving a broken ruin behind. That said, there is going to be a Churchill Telegram, which will specifically state that Canada is to start the draft up and base the new units on the St. Lawrence. While sound from a transportation perspective, it reeks of 1812-esque invasion as well, as the St. Lawrence is not that hard to send boats over. I would hate to introduce an America/Canada front to the war, as that would make me look like a Turtledove knockoff.

The problem with Canada is it's degree of independence from Britain is always rather hard to gauge. I mean, in theory they could probably say "no" but I doubt it. The trick is to keep the Americans and Canadians opposed without open conflict, I think.

And as to The Congressman, thank you for that bit. An autocratic France wouldn't be terribly hard to swing, and with the mess that was the assorted dates and causes for the deceleration of war, I doubt any of the places where this will be posted in parallel will notice.
 
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One of the big things keeping the US on the Entente side was that Germany was authoritarian while the Entente was generally free. If Fredrick III lived till lets say 1898 and was then succeeded by Wilhelm II then the German Empire would be more liberal than OTL. Also you'd have to make France more autocratic. Having Russia and Britain declare war in their own right instead of Germany doing so and over Belgium respectively would help as well.

Of course, having a different, more liberal and anglophile Kaiser would probably prevent World War I as we know it...

I think that a key point here is Belgium. Thanks to the British bloackade the Germans were practically cut off, and most news about the war came from the UK, who used propaganda like the "Rape of Belgium" so they could have popular American opinion in their side. If Belgium for some reason gives military access to Germany (quite unlikely) or even joins the Central Powers (even more unlikely) the "Rape of Belgium" campaing doesn't take place and the Germans aren't seen as monsters who want to conquer the world. Having the Germans actually not doing anything would be a huge help (they did kill civilizans and commited attrocities, but the propaganda made it seem more brutal than it already was).

Also, you could use the great number of civilians of German ascendence in the US.
 
And as to The Congressman, thank you for that bit. An autocratic France wouldn't be terribly hard to swing, and with the mess that was the assorted dates and causes for the deceleration of war, I doubt any of the places where this will be posted in parallel will notice.

You're welcome.
In addition you should make Nicholas II much more repressive than OTL, conducting Pogram style issues in Korea, violating Chinese sovereignty in the Russo-Japanese War. That would really turn US public opinion against the Russians
 
You really need to have an early POD. - Even the Venezolan crisis is maybe to late. US-German relations were never too good (Conflict over Samoa, GErman overtures during the Spanish American war,...)

It might be best if GErmany NEVEr aspires colonies as it did OTL and GErmany and the US could present themseves as anticolonial partners. But that might change Britains attitude towards Germany (seeing Germany as counterweight against Frnaco-Russian agression towards the Empire)
 
I think that a key point here is Belgium. Thanks to the British bloackade the Germans were practically cut off, and most news about the war came from the UK, who used propaganda like the "Rape of Belgium" so they could have popular American opinion in their side. If Belgium for some reason gives military access to Germany (quite unlikely) or even joins the Central Powers (even more unlikely) the "Rape of Belgium" campaing doesn't take place and the Germans aren't seen as monsters who want to conquer the world. Having the Germans actually not doing anything would be a huge help

Also, you could use the great number of civilians of German ascendence in the US.

So, remove the rape of Belgium, and find some way to get German counter-propaganda out too. I'd hesitate to suggest some South American support for Germany providing pro-German pieces, and if it's not too convoluted, using the Ottomans to get information to Von Letzow (butchering his name probably, commander of Afrikorps) which can then get smuggled to S.A. for publication. Perhaps combine German descendants with Irish anti-Britian sentiments?

You're welcome.
In addition you should make Nicholas II much more repressive than OTL, conducting Pogram style issues in Korea, violating Chinese sovereignty in the Russo-Japanese War. That would really turn US public opinion against the Russians

Pfft. See autocratic France. The Nazi's might have been the first group to industrially murder minorities and Jews, but the Russians came up with the concept in terms of scale. Getting the Tsarist Russians to commit crimes against humanity is a piece of cake.

You really need to have an early POD. - Even the Venezuelan crisis is maybe to late. US-German relations were never too good (Conflict over Samoa, German overtures during the Spanish American war,...)

It might be best if Germany Never aspires colonies as it did OTL and GErmany and the US could present themselves as anticolonial partners. But that might change Britains attitude towards Germany (seeing Germany as counterweight against Frnaco-Russian agression towards the Empire)

The problem is that the earlier my PoD is, the more ripple effect I have to write, which gets me further from the real focus- the war. As for colonies, well, that's not changing. However, I could see the Germans getting US brownie points for their relatively polite colonies, as opposed to the English rape/loot/pillage/ignore/develop remains system.
 
Pfft. See autocratic France. The Nazi's might have been the first group to industrially murder minorities and Jews, but the Russians came up with the concept in terms of scale. Getting the Tsarist Russians to commit crimes against humanity is a piece of cake.

Agreed, but the crucial part is for them to threaten China greatly. As we saw from WWII the United Stats was committed to the ope door policy in China. If the Russian Empire continuously violates Chinese sovereignty and try to establish Russian dominance as the Japanese did in the 1930s then Russo-American relations will be crippled
 
The problem is that the earlier my PoD is, the more ripple effect I have to write, which gets me further from the real focus- the war. As for colonies, well, that's not changing. However, I could see the Germans getting US brownie points for their relatively polite colonies, as opposed to the English rape/loot/pillage/ignore/develop remains system.

If you want Germany to get brownie points for its colonies, something would have to be changed. There was nothing polite about, for example, the Herero genocide in German Namibia.

Generally, I don't believe atrocity propaganda works as the main factor. Because even if you get the Entente to commit atrocities equal to those committed by the Ottomans, Austria-Hungary and Germany - they're still going to be closer to America's ear, and able to downplay their own crimes while highlighting the crimes of the CPs.

Some kind of a fallout between America and Britain would be necessary, ideally starting decades before the war itself.
 
So, remove the rape of Belgium, and find some way to get German counter-propaganda out too. I'd hesitate to suggest some South American support for Germany providing pro-German pieces, and if it's not too convoluted, using the Ottomans to get information to Von Letzow (butchering his name probably, commander of Afrikorps) which can then get smuggled to S.A. for publication. Perhaps combine German descendants with Irish anti-Britian sentiments?

Yeah, that would help a lot. Perhaps you can have France being the one who breaks a contry's neutrality. For example, no plan Schlieffen and Germany decides to be in the defensive there, defeat Russia and then move the troops and attack France. Since France can't break through the border, they attack Belgium. The idea of using the Americans with Anti-British sentiment is good too. There even were some German communities who were still speaking German and printing newspapers in their language.

Another thing is getting rid of Willson, who saw the US as the defender of Democracy (and thus didn't want to side with the Empires and liked the Republics and Constitutional Monarchies better) and very anglophile.
 
Not sure if this would tilt the balance but it might help: get Sweden in on the CP side as early as possible. Then you'd have a sizable area in the US (upper Midwest; great plains; Pacific Northwest) staunchly against intervening on the Entente side since the locals would be dead set against going to war against their cousins in the Old Country. That, coupled with a more outspoken German-American contingent (perhaps H. L. Mencken might be a better spokesman?) would yield at least a fighting chance, but I still think the whole idea faces long odds. In the final analysis, the US is too close to the UK and thus the Entente (well, not Russia) culturally to make a choice to fight on the CP side easy.
 
Yeah, that would help a lot. Perhaps you can have France being the one who breaks a country's neutrality. For example, no plan Schlieffen and Germany decides to be in the defensive there, defeat Russia and then move the troops and attack France. Since France can't break through the border, they attack Belgium. The idea of using the Americans with Anti-British sentiment is good too. There even were some German communities who were still speaking German and printing newspapers in their language.

Another thing is getting rid of Willson, who saw the US as the defender of Democracy (and thus didn't want to side with the Empires and liked the Republics and Constitutional Monarchies better) and very anglophile.

So REMOVE WILSON, and have France fuck with Belgium first. Excellent plan, and it's fairly plausible as far as ripple effects go. To make that sell, I'm going to have to give the Germans some evidence to make them think they could steamroll Russia in case of emergency, though, and it would have to be fairly solid, and not just "Superior German Engineering can trump Russian Shit", because honestly they can make up for it in mass even with the Tsar in charge.

Not sure if this would tilt the balance but it might help: get Sweden in on the CP side as early as possible. Then you'd have a sizable area in the US (upper Midwest; great plains; Pacific Northwest) staunchly against intervening on the Entente side since the locals would be dead set against going to war against their cousins in the Old Country. That, coupled with a more outspoken German-American contingent (perhaps H. L. Mencken might be a better spokesman?) would yield at least a fighting chance, but I still think the whole idea faces long odds. In the final analysis, the US is too close to the UK and thus the Entente (well, not Russia) culturally to make a choice to fight on the CP side easy.

Good idea, but I'm not sure how to lever it. I could just make a secret "Scandanavia Together" plan, and have Denmark jump in to drag the rest onto the warboat, but that might need some work.

Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck is the name you want.

Thanks.
 
So REMOVE WILSON, and have France fuck with Belgium first. Excellent plan, and it's fairly plausible as far as ripple effects go. To make that sell, I'm going to have to give the Germans some evidence to make them think they could steamroll Russia in case of emergency, though, and it would have to be fairly solid, and not just "Superior German Engineering can trump Russian Shit", because honestly they can make up for it in mass even with the Tsar in charge.

With regards to Wilson, his winning the Democratic nomination that year was far from a sure thing, so having the OTL favorite Champ Clark get the nod instead in 1912 would be an easy way to get a much more Angloskeptic president in charge. In addition to what's already been said about Wilson, this also gets his ally Colonel House out of the equation. As for Clark, he was famous for giving a speech where he expressed his hope for the American flag to stretch from the Canadian border all the way to the North Pole, to give you some perspective on what his tenure might have been like. ;)
 
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