an alternate world: what will happen?

Be rather careful with butterflies. For example, would l'Aiglon still catch TBC if he was a prince, instead of deposed former heir apparent to Napoleon?
Why not?
Would Napoleon himself die in 1821 or live longer?
Perhaps he'd live a little longer... Maybe, but I'm not too sure whether it'd make sense.

BTW, I didn't intend to be overly critical in my earlier responses, I was just shooting out the ideas and issues that first came to my mind.
You didn't. Not at all. On the contrary; I really appreaciate all your help, and if I ever manage to actually write the novel/story, I'll give credit to you, and thank you for all help (as well as all others having helped here, on this thread).

____________

PS A new idea (well, two, in fact) just popped into my mind: a Franco-Italian conflict over the island of Corisca. Napoleon had been born there, so it belonged to France culturally and historically, the French said. It did belong to the French empire, but at a certain moment, Italy claimed it, saying that a new investigation had concluded that the island was transferred from the Republic of Genoa to France, only because the French had heavily threatened the Goenese. A dispute over the island breaks out, and Corsican nationalism rises too. Good idea?

Secondly, I also had some sort of idea that at a certain point, there is a revolution in Italy. The Italians want to get rid of their aristocratic rule and desired some sort of similar system the French had: a monarch advised by a number of counselors. Not really a constitutional monarchy, but something like that. After the revolution, Italy and France become allies. Italy is ruled by a so-called 'autocrat', some sort of mix between a king and a dictator. Because of the new alliance between France and Italy, Britain, Russia and Spain are afraid of them gaining to much power. What will happen next?

And before I forget; I'm also thinking of making Iberia different: Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Balearic Islands, southern Italy), Castile (rest of Spain) and Portugal.
 
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Hi guys,

Here's an update of again new ideas in my mind...

  1. After the new friendship of Italy and France, new alliances in Europe and the entire world, in fact, emerge. Italy and France (plus both countries' puppets) are the main monarchist and conservatist countries. Russia joins this alliance, since it's a Tsardom, which needs trong friends due to weakness and problems in the east and south.

  2. The US and the CSA are fierce enemies. The US is isolationist, republican and liberal, and hence would never join the alliance of France and Italy (from now on: the Monarchist Bloc).
    The CSA, though, is a socialist country. The reasons of its existence are gone: namely, slavery is abolished and everyone has equal rights.
    At some point, I think, the CSA will join the communists. A Communist Bloc will emerge, comprising the CSA, Japan and China.

  3. Mexico is a weak state and conflicts over its territory, between the US, the CSA and Mexico itself, arise. Mexico fears communism and hence choses for the US. The US gains Sonora and Baja California (which merges with California), whereas the CSA nevertheless manages to annex Chihuahua. Yucatan gains independence, as does the Rio Grande Republic. Later, Guatemala (OTL Guatemala plus El Salvador, Honduras, Belize and Chiapas) breaks away. Besides, Panama (plus Costa Rica) and Nicaragua were already part of Colombia.

    Mexico and the US now form the Liberal Bloc. Their 'ideology' has individualist, republican and liberal aspects.

  4. The Turkish Empire joins the Monarchist Bloc, for obvious reasons. Most of South America, I think, will eventually choose for the Liberal Bloc. The new independent countries comprising former Mexican territory of course won't. They would side with communism, I assume.

  5. I want to get rid of my previous idea of a Polish-German puppet of France. Instead, I think a German puppet and an independent Poland is better. In Lithuania, problems arise since Belarussians feel to be considered 'less'. Hence they strive for independence.

  6. Poland will never, of course, allign with the monarchists. It's in between two monarchist powers: France (its puppets, in fact) and Russia. And in the south is the threat of Italy and its tributary states. Poland, therefore, manages to get a secret alliance with the US and hence is in the Liberal Bloc. Lithuania does roughly the same, but keeps its Belarussian problem. Because the US supports the freedom of nations, Lithuania has to drop Belarus, giving it independence, since it otherwise wouldn't get the US' support. Belarus joins the Liberal Bloc too.
What do you guys say? Good ideas? Please have a look at some posts on the previous page too. Some haven't yet ben discussed!
 
This is a great idea, and looks a lot like a world I've created for a (currently shelved) AH novel. I united Dutch New Amsterdam with heavily Germanic Pennsylvania to form the Vereinigten Staten Amerika (VSA), had a British Virginia (also including Maryland), an independent Republic in New England, an enlarged Quebec (which could have Caribbean colonies and be your Canada equivalent) and a slave-owning Jacobite monarchy in the Carolinas. I sent a lot of Brits and Scots-Irish to Africa, but South America might work as well.

Basically, your POD here is that Cromwell lives longer/is more successful, and things don't fall apart for the roundheads until the 1680s, at which point they offer the crown straight to William. Butterfly the Anglo-Dutch conflict in the 1660s, and get the Dutch to give the Cape to the British. Sure, you won't have an ACW, but you'd get a US and CS equivalent that don't like one another much.

Orthodox Protestantism is also possible. OTL Luther tried to do a deal with the Orthodox, but it fell through. Make this more successful, and convert Lithuania to the hybrid, and you're off to a good start. Now, the Lutherans will eventually go pietist and the Russian laity will eventually freak out about compromising with Protestantism, but it might last long enough to create a Lutheran/Orthodox hybrid in Eastern Europe. Their enlightenment is going to look different than the French or Scottish, of course; much more explicitly Christian humanism; Deism would be a non-starter, and rather than being anti-clerical, it will probably come out of the monasteries. Even Luther won't be able to get rid of icons and monasteries, and the compromise on those points will eventually push pietist Lutherans to break with the Lutheran/Orthodox hybrid church.

I like the idea though; let me know how else I can help. If you give up the need for an ACW, and are just willing to accept a free north and slave-owning south which don't get along at all, your path gets way easier.
 
This is a great idea, and looks a lot like a world I've created for a (currently shelved) AH novel. I united Dutch New Amsterdam with heavily Germanic Pennsylvania to form the Vereinigten Staten Amerika (VSA), had a British Virginia (also including Maryland), an independent Republic in New England, an enlarged Quebec (which could have Caribbean colonies and be your Canada equivalent) and a slave-owning Jacobite monarchy in the Carolinas. I sent a lot of Brits and Scots-Irish to Africa, but South America might work as well.

Basically, your POD here is that Cromwell lives longer/is more successful, and things don't fall apart for the roundheads until the 1680s, at which point they offer the crown straight to William. Butterfly the Anglo-Dutch conflict in the 1660s, and get the Dutch to give the Cape to the British. Sure, you won't have an ACW, but you'd get a US and CS equivalent that don't like one another much.

Orthodox Protestantism is also possible. OTL Luther tried to do a deal with the Orthodox, but it fell through. Make this more successful, and convert Lithuania to the hybrid, and you're off to a good start. Now, the Lutherans will eventually go pietist and the Russian laity will eventually freak out about compromising with Protestantism, but it might last long enough to create a Lutheran/Orthodox hybrid in Eastern Europe. Their enlightenment is going to look different than the French or Scottish, of course; much more explicitly Christian humanism; Deism would be a non-starter, and rather than being anti-clerical, it will probably come out of the monasteries. Even Luther won't be able to get rid of icons and monasteries, and the compromise on those points will eventually push pietist Lutherans to break with the Lutheran/Orthodox hybrid church.

I like the idea though; let me know how else I can help. If you give up the need for an ACW, and are just willing to accept a free north and slave-owning south which don't get along at all, your path gets way easier.

Thank you very much! I need to think about having no ACW. It's not a big deal, since what is more important is what's going to happen next! Tomorrow, maybe today, or some other day, I will combine all ideas and comments and I will share an orderly put together timeline. I hope you will be able to comment on that by then...
 
I contradict in your first post(s) .

Italy is strong, but
Southern Italy is Spanish
Northwestern Italy is French

Sorry, there lots of contradictions more, I know, that's because I've changed my mind several times.
To clarify: first, Italy is strong, but is without the Spanish south, and France has Piedmont and Savoy. Then, ...
...at a certain point, there is a revolution in Italy. The Italians want to get rid of their aristocratic rule and desired some sort of similar system the French had: a monarch advised by a number of counselors. Not really a constitutional monarchy, but something like that. After the revolution, Italy and France become allies. Italy is ruled by a so-called 'autocrat', some sort of mix between a king and a dictator...
After this revolution, Italy gains Piedmont (generous French gift, due to the French fear of Piedmont wanting independence), but Savoy remains French.
Afterwards, Italy becomes stronger and more powerful again.

So, in short, the northwest meant Savoy and Piedmont. The south always remained Spanish, well Aragonese, in fact. Italy transformed due to a revolution and became even more powerful. Then, it also got back Piedmont. It kept it's puppet states, except Austria. Austria became formally independent, but de facto a French puppet.
 
Hi guys,

Here's an update of again new ideas in my mind...

  1. After the new friendship of Italy and France, new alliances in Europe and the entire world, in fact, emerge. Italy and France (plus both countries' puppets) are the main monarchist and conservatist countries. Russia joins this alliance, since it's a Tsardom, which needs trong friends due to weakness and problems in the east and south.
  2. The US and the CSA are fierce enemies. The US is isolationist, republican and liberal, and hence would never join the alliance of France and Italy (from now on: the Monarchist Bloc).
    The CSA, though, is a socialist country. The reasons of its existence are gone: namely, slavery is abolished and everyone has equal rights.
    At some point, I think, the CSA will join the communists. A Communist Bloc will emerge, comprising the CSA, Japan and China.
  3. Mexico is a weak state and conflicts over its territory, between the US, the CSA and Mexico itself, arise. Mexico fears communism and hence choses for the US. The US gains Sonora and Baja California (which merges with California), whereas the CSA nevertheless manages to annex Chihuahua. Yucatan gains independence, as does the Rio Grande Republic. Later, Guatemala (OTL Guatemala plus El Salvador, Honduras, Belize and Chiapas) breaks away. Besides, Panama (plus Costa Rica) and Nicaragua were already part of Colombia.

    Mexico and the US now form the Liberal Bloc. Their 'ideology' has individualist, republican and liberal aspects.
  4. The Turkish Empire joins the Monarchist Bloc, for obvious reasons. Most of South America, I think, will eventually choose for the Liberal Bloc. The new independent countries comprising former Mexican territory of course won't. They would side with communism, I assume.
  5. I want to get rid of my previous idea of a Polish-German puppet of France. Instead, I think a German puppet and an independent Poland is better. In Lithuania, problems arise since Belarussians feel to be considered 'less'. Hence they strive for independence.
  6. Poland will never, of course, allign with the monarchists. It's in between two monarchist powers: France (its puppets, in fact) and Russia. And in the south is the threat of Italy and its tributary states. Poland, therefore, manages to get a secret alliance with the US and hence is in the Liberal Bloc. Lithuania does roughly the same, but keeps its Belarussian problem. Because the US supports the freedom of nations, Lithuania has to drop Belarus, giving it independence, since it otherwise wouldn't get the US' support. Belarus joins the Liberal Bloc too.
What do you guys say? Good ideas? Please have a look at some posts on the previous page too. Some haven't yet ben discussed!

Wouldn't monarchist group be to strong ? For ex in case of conflict between them and let say a Central Alliance,victory be too sure for the monarchist group.

If Us is as anti-communist as in OTL i believe that there is chance of a second war in America. (if Canada is strong as you propose in the first post which group they will join if the join,you may heave them as power brokers in the north America,in the case of a second war in )

About Belarus that could be a point of conflict with Russia.
Russia supports movement of independence in Belarus. (Pro Prussian groups)

Liberal Bloc will be compose of Poland,US and ?

What happens to Hungary in the new scenario of France Italian Turkish friendship
How about Denmark,Norway,Finland,Sweden,Estonia,Latvia ?
Also who controls Ukraine?
Germany will be puppet of who ? (Poland or France)
 
Wouldn't monarchist group be to strong ? For ex in case of conflict between them and let say a Central Alliance,victory be too sure for the monarchist group.

Well, there is a chance that they're too strong indeed... What actually do you mean with Central Alliance?

If Us is as anti-communist as in OTL i believe that there is chance of a second war in America. (if Canada is strong as you propose in the first post which group they will join if the join,you may heave them as power brokers in the north America,in the case of a second war in )
Yeah, that'd be cool, a second war. France's Lousiana will be Monarchism in North America. Canada will probably join that. The US and Mexico are the Liberal Bloc in North America. The CSA is communist and main enemy of the US. Probably some sort of agreement will be made between either the communists and the monarchists or the monarchists and the liberals. Or we just have a three-side war...

About Belarus that could be a point of conflict with Russia.
Russia supports movement of independence in Belarus. (Pro Prussian groups)
Yeah, but Belarus already gains independence since the US demands that. Belarus, Poland and Lithuania join the Liberal Bloc. However, Russia may possibly claim Belarus, arguing that it is in fact Russian territory (Belarus is sometimes also called White Russia). Then we have a conflict between the monarchists and liberals.

Liberal Bloc will be compose of Poland,US and ?
Anyone any suggestions? I think Germany will join by the time it has broken off France. Besides, we have Lithuania and Belarus.

What happens to Hungary in the new scenario of France Italian Turkish friendship
It's actually logical for Hungary to join the Monarchist Bloc, the strongest, but I'd suggest them going for the Liberal Bloc, at some point.

How about Denmark,Norway,Finland,Sweden,Estonia,Latvia ?
Good question. Need to think about that. Some of them, I think Norway for example, will try to remain neutral.

Also who controls Ukraine?
Poland, partly, and Lithuania, partly, and Russia, a small part.

Germany will be puppet of who ? (Poland or France)
Germany will be Fench in first instance, but will gradually break away and gain independence.

____________

About South America:
I think most countries here will join the Liberal Bloc, except for Brazil. That'd be a good country to join communism.
___________

About the UK:
What would you guys propose for the UK? I have a few options: (i) trying to stay neutral as long as possible, (ii) joining France and the Monarchist Bloc, (iii) becoming communist, or (iv) joing the liberals.
 
Well, there is a chance that they're too strong indeed... What actually do you mean with Central Alliance? .

By Central Alliance i was referring to the Poland and her allies, I saw the you call the alliance liberal bloc later and didn’t edit my post

About the UK:
What would you guys propose for the UK? I have a few options: (i) trying to stay neutral as long as possible, (ii) joining France and the Monarchist Bloc, (iii) becoming communist, or (iv) joing the liberals.

Real life UK tried to maintain a balance of power between continental powers,for it will be in her disadvantage for one o them to become to strong.
How about neutral initially and then join in one of them,i think liberal.
Could have them having problems with the communist to,you can have them going to a period of soul searching.
 
By Central Alliance i was referring to the Poland and her allies, I saw the you call the alliance liberal bloc later and didn’t edit my post

Ah, okay.

Real life UK tried to maintain a balance of power between continental powers,for it will be in her disadvantage for one o them to become to strong.
How about neutral initially and then join in one of them,i think liberal.
Could have them having problems with the communist to,you can have them going to a period of soul searching.

Yeah, I suggest the following: first neutral for a long time, then considering joining the communists and then eventually chosing the liberals.
 
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