An alternate World War Two?

Question for you all.

Assuming this is the scenario for a war in the 1930s: Socialist France and the USSR versus Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

What do the other countries in Europe do? Would Britain get involved? What about Norway, Sweden and Denmark? Would Hitler look to invade Norway and the Netherlands and Belgium as he did otl, or would he simply be focused on France and Russia?

To clarify, Hitler has remilitarised the Rhineland, and taken Austria and the Sudentenland.

What does the US do?

If it looked as though the Soviets were winning, would other countries step in to prevent their threat spreading?
 
Has Germany taken anything else off the Czechs? But the Czech stockpiles of motorized and armor helped keep the Blitzkrieg plan alive and without it, we see a world with a less effective blitzkrieg plan for France and an impossible one for the Soviets without major changes in the German industrial effort.

Has France fixed all of its military problems? I imagine that a Socialist France would have focused more on it army organization and invasion/defensive/counter-offensive plans but it might still have to deal with democratic resistance groups, regardless of peaceful or militaristic takeovers.

Has Stalin purged? Clearly, this would be a large setback if he purged his army of many of his competent officers and generals for loyal but inexperienced ones and then declared war on Germany.

Finally, has Hitler's genocidal tendencies been implemented and discovered in a TL where the Reds begin to win? If it has, then the democratic powers would have definitely sided with the Reds and possibly send volunteers and supplies to help. Otherwise, the democratic powers most likely would decide against taking a side as they were blinded by illusions of peace as well as they were watching the main opponents to their ideology tear themselves apart and probably have seen as a beneficial situation.
 
Has Germany taken anything else off the Czechs? But the Czech stockpiles of motorized and armor helped keep the Blitzkrieg plan alive and without it, we see a world with a less effective blitzkrieg plan for France and an impossible one for the Soviets without major changes in the German industrial effort.

Has France fixed all of its military problems? I imagine that a Socialist France would have focused more on it army organization and invasion/defensive/counter-offensive plans but it might still have to deal with democratic resistance groups, regardless of peaceful or militaristic takeovers.

Has Stalin purged? Clearly, this would be a large setback if he purged his army of many of his competent officers and generals for loyal but inexperienced ones and then declared war on Germany.

Finally, has Hitler's genocidal tendencies been implemented and discovered in a TL where the Reds begin to win? If it has, then the democratic powers would have definitely sided with the Reds and possibly send volunteers and supplies to help. Otherwise, the democratic powers most likely would decide against taking a side as they were blinded by illusions of peace as well as they were watching the main opponents to their ideology tear themselves apart and probably have seen as a beneficial situation.

I'm thinking that the Germans take the stock piles from the Czechs, and have enough to implement their Blitzkrieg plans.

I'm thinking some of their military problems have been fixed, not all, but some.

Stalin has definitely purged, I think the man was too suspicious not to.

Hmm, as to that, I think yes, the Reds would've discovered it and used it, whether the other powers believe him or not is another matter.
 
Another question: What about Poland?

The Nazis don't really want to fight a two front war without having the majority of Western Europe contained because Hitler wouldn't have felt confident enough. Poland forms a natural border between Germany and Russia and if Socialist France existing, its more than likely that in the years leading up to the war, Germany has been influencing Poland, through friendship or threats. If Poland gave the Soviets military access, it would be a disaster to Hitler, but if the Poles wouldn't, it would mean that the Soviets would have three options:

1. Invade Poland: it would mean that Poles and Germans would technically be allies (similarly to how the Soviets and Allies were allies by circumstance against the Axis) and Germans and Italians could rush to the Polish border, more than likely resulting in a slog that would cause most of the collateral damage to Poland, a place that would serve as a supply line for the Soviets if they were to push into Germany. Worse, a totalitarian regime attacking a young republic would have probably been the last straw for the Allied Powers, as it was in our TL, meaning the Reds would be fighting against fascism and the British Empire.

2. Go around Poland: probably the worst option as it would result in pissing off the Allies and possibly getting them involved, as well as more enemies in the Balkans, possibly resulting the formation of a alliance solely from defending the Balkans from Red aggression or acceptance into the Allies. This means more enemies, sets up for future American involvement (although it's still incredibly unlikely), no help from France and usage of precious supplies, which the Reds can't waste, all without ever laying a foot on Nazi soil. Assuming that the Soviets somehow push around Poland, they have damaged infrastructure which can't transport supplies or troops, more land that they need to protect from possibly naval invasions meaning more supplies diverted from the Axis front, and insurgency groups that the British could now communicate with to aid in the further obstruction of supplies and troop movement, as well as possible assassination attempts, industrial sabotage and attacks on Soviet administration, espionage and war planning centers. Only possible benefit is the new officers gain the experience they so desperately need before facing the main threat.

3. Naval invasion to Ostpreussen, then Eastern German coast: least plausible idea as Soviets have a horrible navy and the Kriegsmarine would easily be able to repel any attempt to threaten Germany. This allows the Axis to focus on France and would probably lead to a breakthrough in the southern front on Italy after the Germans find that they can't breakthrough the Maginot or whatever socialist activist that it's named after now (because butterflies). France is eliminated and the Soviets find themselves with less supplies, less men, no allies and a stronger enemy.

In a TL where genocide is discovered, Poland would probably be guaranteed by the Allies to avoid further Nazi aggression, meaning that Poland is fully off-limits or else all the democrcies in the world will point a gun to your head, but this still means that Germany gets its barrier and the Soviets are forced to take 2 or 3. No matter what situation, Poland makes a war with Axis almost impossible without large Red losses.
 
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Has France fixed all of its military problems? ...

Unlikely. Many of the underlying causes of the Armies weaknesses came from the socialist side of the Chamber of Deputies. The short tenure of Blums Popular Front in the 1930s did not weaken the army, but did not improve it either. I expect had the Popular Front been able to retain the government then Gamelin & his favorites would not reach the top, retiring years earlier instead. But, this does not guarantee the alternatives would make better choices. The character of the army as a citizen levee of reservists would certainly remain, & through 1938 at least training would remain underfunded. Leftist allergy towards a professional officer corps might actually make training and skill worse.

On the up side early nationalization, of the aircraft industry could lead to rationalization of it & a better equipped Armee' de Air in 1940. Even if not nationalized a bit of selective choices in who got the R & D, & production contracts might help rationalize things. Depends on if the men in the ministry of defense are letting politics & ideology continue to guide them, or are making some tough decisions according to merit and efficiency.
 
Quick add-on to situation 3: If Hitler is stupid enough to go around the Maginot through the Benelux, then they would have the Allies breathing down their backs and we essentially have WWII, but the Balkans and Poland are untouched (because due to the lack of fighting in said areas, Reds can't establish a socialist puppet state) and France is red. Overall, Soviets have less power and if a Cold War still happens, they will be forced to concede earlier instead of slowly dying out due to social reforms, giving democracy a odd, slightly shakier victory and allowing for the Reds to to remain as members in the international community until they inevitably succumb to external pressure for ideological change.
 
Interesting so if I’m getting you right the socialists in France would be where the main fighting happens, likely through the western not the north western front. Which could mean the soviets are stuck and likely infighting war on them from the west regardless of what they do?
 
could be the outline of German dream scenario? France-USSR allied closely together and British see little difference between Socialist and Communist regimes?

what has happened in Spanish Civil War and with Poland?

in the Balkans France had historically set up all the cross alliances with little Entente, here they would seemingly be more reliant on Soviets.
 
could be the outline of German dream scenario? France-USSR allied closely together and British see little difference between Socialist and Communist regimes?

what has happened in Spanish Civil War and with Poland?

in the Balkans France had historically set up all the cross alliances with little Entente, here they would seemingly be more reliant on Soviets.
I'm thinking either socialists win in Spain or that Franco triumphs asmotl
 
Interesting so if I’m getting you right the socialists in France would be where the main fighting happens, likely through the western not the north western front. Which could mean the soviets are stuck and likely infighting war on them from the west regardless of what they do?

Essentially, yes. There is nearly no plausible way for the Soviets to fight the Axis without gaining more enemies and dooming communism and socialism unless Hitler picks up a gun, loads it and shoot himself in the foot for giggles. Germany doesn't need to involve the Allies, but if Poland doesn't give the Soviets access, the Soviets have to or doom their ally.

in the Balkans France had historically set up all the cross alliances with little Entente, here they would seemingly be more reliant on Soviets.

About that... Whatever good feelings that came from the Little Entente are probably long dead, as France is Socialist and allied to the Soviets while the Balkans are threatened by the power of the Soviets as well as the monarchies in the Balkans would be appalled by the idea of being friends with the land led by peasant rabble. Also, the French would have to have adverse relations with these countries by definition. As they are Socialist France, they couldn't exactly be supportive of monarchies and imperialism. This pushes the Balkans towards Italy and Germany, as they are the other regional powers. This means that France would definitely rely heavily on the Soviets, as there are no other possible allies, outside of Republican Spain.

When did France go commie?
 
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Essentially, yes. There is nearly no plausible way for the Soviets to fight the Axis without gaining more enemies and dooming communism and socialism with Hitler picking up a gun, loading it up and shooting himself in the foot for giggles. Germany doesn't need to involve the Allies, but if Poland doesn't give the Soviets access, the Soviets have to or doom their ally.



About that... Whatever good feelings that came from the Little Entente are probably long dead, as France is Socialist and allied to the Soviets while the Balkans are threatened by the power of the Soviets as well as the monarchies in the Balkans would be appalled by the idea of being friends with the land led by peasant rabble. Also, the French would have to have adverse relations with these countries by definition. As they are Socialist France, they couldn't exactly be supportive of monarchies and imperialism. This pushes the Balkans towards Italy and Germany, as they are the other regional powers. This means that France would definitely rely heavily on the Soviets, as there are no other possible allies, outside of Republican Spain.

When did France go commie?
Interesting would the poles willingly give the soviets access?

As for France I'm thinking the 1920s
 
If socialist France is allied with USSR then this would have major butterflies on the Sudetenland. Unless Czechoslovakia was also socialist and allied with France / USSR then France would have zero influence on Czechoslovakia. How does the Sudetenland get ceded to Germany? If Czechoslovakia was allied to France / USSR then they aren't likely to abandon a fellow socialist country to the fascists.
 
If socialist France is allied with USSR then this would have major butterflies on the Sudetenland. Unless Czechoslovakia was also socialist and allied with France / USSR then France would have zero influence on Czechoslovakia. How does the Sudetenland get ceded to Germany? If Czechoslovakia was allied to France / USSR then they aren't likely to abandon a fellow socialist country to the fascists.
I'm not sure the Czechs would want to ally with socialist France. Before yheforties communism wasn't that big there was it
 
I guess the Berlin Conference could still happen. Without France as an ally, I'd argue that the Germans could have gotten away with more if they wanted as Britain would have been even more desperate for peace.
 
I guess the Berlin Conference could still happen. Without France as an ally, I'd argue that the Germans could have gotten away with more if they wanted as Britain would have been even more desperate for peace.
I agree, especially if there’s a more pro peace monarch and government in place
 
the French would have one advantage over the German (OTL) collaboration with Soviets ... they are several countries away. the same calculus would apply to naval collaboration, the French could barter for fuel and deliver ships to Soviets considering they would be (primarily) used in Baltic and Black Seas.

could envision Germany having at least some support from Great Britain as anti-Communist bulwark, especially if Franco-Soviet bloc "wins" Spanish Civil War (as seems likely.) the two would also have China in pincer between Siberia and Indochina, although Japan feeling the pressure more than cooperative KMT regime?

not to oversell the scenario for bringing Germany "in from the cold" but if they did not launch a naval buildup they could have probably gotten refinanced by GB? as was proposed at one time.
 
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