An alternate Puritan World

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For one, I would like to say that Tony Jones' Puritan World timeline was created very well. It has a unique setting, and it appears very plausible. Tony's resolutions to different actions are intelligent and thoughtful.

Looking through the first part of Tony's timeline, I noticed that he posited a different version of Puritan World, one where the British Commonwealth and the Netherlands had unified under Cromwell's power. Its only a small mention, but it would definitely catapult his timeline in a different direction.

Read through the first part of the timeline to year 1651.
http://www.clockworksky.net/puritan_world/ah_pw_tl_01.html
Any thoughts on this subject?
 

Darkest

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That's a possibility. However, if the Netherlands unified with the British Commonwealth, it would be a much stronger, more international power. The royalists and Charles I will have a harder time retaking power (even though at this part in the ATL, there was much more royalist sentiment). Much more of a chance that the Commonwealth continues, and no Puritan dominion is established in the New World.
 

Darkest

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Well, considering the Netherlands had definitely a much less hardline form of Puritanism/Calvinism. So, yes, its definitely probable.

On second thought, I have to criticise the Puritan World ATL after Part 1. Its definitely a Puritanwank. The Puritans accomplish quite a bit in conquering every part of the North American continent, while no other party recognizes their threat. The monarchies should have created an organized resistance beforehand. One does not give way to Napoleon, as we have seen in history.
 

Poison Frog

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Why? North america until the mid to late 19th century was still mostly empty in population so the reaction would'nt be like if someone in Europe tried going on a rampage.
 

Darkest

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Still, I doubt the European empires would let the Puritans take the ENTIRE continent and then some, including Japan, the Philippines, New Guinea and Australia. They're larger than Russia, for crying out loud! It could not have happened that fast with so little objection.
 
A more tolerant one as well, in the long term?
Hopefully that also means that the Lord Protector will eventually be somebody else other than a Cromwell.

That's the one thing in Puritan World that reall got to me- there was very little variation in names. It was a straight line of Cromwells from Oliver to the present day. All the Kings of England were named Charles or James. All the French kings were named Louis. All the Russian tsars were named Nicholas, Peter, Ivan, or Catherine. All the Cromwells died of old age. Nothing ever happened to the ruling families.

/rant
 

Darkest

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Definitely, definitely. But that is somewhat expected of ATLs, you can't blame him. Some parts of history are random, intricate events that happened thanks to minutia. That's just plain extremely difficult to create on your own!
 
Definitely, definitely. But that is somewhat expected of ATLs, you can't blame him. Some parts of history are random, intricate events that happened thanks to minutia. That's just plain extremely difficult to create on your own!
I know, I know. But, surely, couldn't one simply switch the names part-way through a history? I mean, the chances of every Cromwell having a son (first off) and growing to maturity (secondly) without any mishaps is pretty slim. Couldn't've one Cromwell just had a daughter, who married someone else? So, say, Jebediah Cromwell has a daughter named Serenity and no son. Serenity probably has to marry at some point, due to family or poltical pressure. She can't marry another Cromwell- inbreeding's for those nefarious Papists! She marries somebody else... maybe a Hamilton or Burr. So then, 1802 or somesuch onwards, the LP's last name changes. The next Lord Protector is named Hadrian Burr. Thus, variation occurs.

A King Alain Bourbon, King Phineas Stuart, or Tsar Boris once in a while would not go amiss.


The minutia is where all the fun is, anyways. Making an ATL is only half the experience if you never bother to come up with well-thought-up rulers, family trees, national holidays, cultural taboos, particular dialects of langauge, &c., &c.
 
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My favorite Tony Jones ATL is Monarchy World....but I also enjoyed Clive-less World and Puritan World quite a bit.....they're far better than anything I could probably come up with, after all.

Of course, the Puritans do suffer reverses (they're not like the Draka; everything doesn't always go their way). They fail to invade Korea. They fail to hold onto their toe-hold in Tierra del Fuego. And the Spanish and Portuguese manage to keep them from advancing further into South America. And the French and Dutch keep them from conquering all of Terra Australis. And their current war with the Hextuple Alliance is pretty much a stalemate at the moment.
 
Thanks for all the positive comments! As for the rest:

On second thought, I have to criticise the Puritan World ATL after Part 1. Its definitely a Puritanwank. The Puritans accomplish quite a bit in conquering every part of the North American continent, while no other party recognizes their threat. The monarchies should have created an organized resistance beforehand. One does not give way to Napoleon, as we have seen in history.

Oh, it's definately at least slightly Puritanwank, but no more so than any other TL where something marginal is brought to centre stage.

They do have to fight for North America; they just do against one nation at a time and have the homeground advantage. As for Napoleon, there is no example of him ITTL (at least by this point) for them to learn from...

And as stated above they have to fight for other places too, so it's not like they're the Draka or anything.

Still, I doubt the European empires would let the Puritans take the ENTIRE continent and then some, including Japan, the Philippines, New Guinea and Australia. They're larger than Russia, for crying out loud! It could not have happened that fast with so little objection.

They're not larger than Russia in terms of land area (though they are in terms of population, industry and so on). As for them taking all that territory, again it's largely unpopulated and far from Europe, plus they do it over the same sort of time that those places were colonised in OTL. So what's the problem? :p

That's the one thing in Puritan World that reall got to me- there was very little variation in names. It was a straight line of Cromwells from Oliver to the present day. All the Kings of England were named Charles or James. All the French kings were named Louis. All the Russian tsars were named Nicholas, Peter, Ivan, or Catherine. All the Cromwells died of old age. Nothing ever happened to the ruling families.

Some French Kings were other than Louis; I think some were Charles.

And the having names be the same from ruler to ruler is just following on from the historical example where lots of kings tend to be named the same as their predecessors. After all even in OTL the French Louis' got up to 14. Why should that sucession stop without a French Revolution?

I think some Cromwells were overthrown actually, BTW.

You could certainly make a case for breaking the sucession of Cromwells at some point, but so far it hasn't happened; I just wanted a Cromwell in power right up to the present day!
 
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A Revision by Darkest

[As an aside, what sort of world might have grown up if Britain and the Netherlands had unified at this point?]
- Tony Jones
...

1651
A number of Royalist uprisings occur across England, Wales and Ireland. These are brutally crushed.

A British diplomatic mission attempts to unite the Commonwealth of England with the Dutch Republic under Cromwell's leadership.

The decision of the Dutch to not only accept the diplomatic mission but to acknowledge certain possibilities were apparent between the Republic and the Commonwealth was based on many factors. The states of Holland feared dictatorial intentions of stadtholder William II of Orange, who was attempting to fulfill the monarchial intentions of his father. The two nations were also republics, and very puritan. Their similiarities were uncanny.

Also, the representatives present in treating the emissaries of the Commonwealth were of the aristocratic upbringing, and has substantial interests abroad that could have been hampered by a worsening of relations with the British.

Nevertheless, after an eight-month stay in which delegates debated policies, the English left to the Commonwealth, reporting to Cromwell that the Dutch were very open to further agreements, but that differences in political structure required more time for meeting.

With both rumours and evidence of plots against the government supported by funds provided by Charles I in France, British Roman Catholics become persecuted increasingly harshly. Because of this the number of Catholics fleeing the country rises.

In Ireland perhaps half of the population is killed in the suppression of their revolt, with many fleeing to Europe or being sent to the New World as slaves. Many British and Scotch settlers move to Ireland, with the Irish they are replacing being transplanted to poor-quality land in the west of Ireland.

1652
Prince of Orange, William II, hoping to crown himself the monarch of the Netherlands, orders an army of 10,000 troops on Amsterdam. It is a difficult battle, but with many casualties behind him, William II's soldiers take victory at the city of Amsterdam. He immediately begins a purge of the city of dissidents, and throws many wealthy, powerful merchants into prison. The Orange Prince has thus removed his political opponents into opposing the Treaty of Munster's troop reduction, and begins plans not only to build up the army, but to begin a treaty with France to take more land.

The ambitious stadtholder had, however, only stirred up trouble. Holland, Friesland, and Zealand began a rebellion against the monarchist. The seven Dutchmen made their famous dash to English soil, where at London it was made known to Oliver Cromwell that William II had seized power and was trying to enflame royalist opinion to overthrow the Commonwealth. They also reported that the states of Holland and a good part of Puritan Netherlands would be for joining Cromwell if he could send aid.

English ships of war approach Dutch ports and begin a blockade of William II's forces within short order, using the chaos to their advantage. Within the Netherlands, the Prince of Orange had begun a mad build up of soldiers, privateers and militia to take down the rebels of Holland and Friesland.

Within short order, the English blockade of provinces loyal to William II caused many states unsure of their side to join with the states of Holland as pro-Cromwell. The death of William II, Prince of Orange, thanks to his ferry boat collapsing when he attempted to cross a river during a storm, caused loyalty within the army to dissipate. Within eight months, the Commonwealth had taken the Netherlands.

With a delegation at the Hague only a month after, dialogue was picked up once more to include the Netherlands in the union of the Commonwealth. The British emissaries found the Hague this time a much more acceptable place.

The Dutch East India Company founds Cape Town.
Rhode Island becomes the first settlement in North America to make slavery illegal.

1653
As Oliver Cromwell, pro-Commonwealth forces (mainly consisting of those in Holland) consolidates power in the Netherlands, friction emerges. Cromwell begins a war on the remaining Orangists. One by one, the Dutch provinces fall to the Commonwealth. Extremely puritanical measures are put forth, while local power is convened more and more to the Dutch States-General. Cromwell and those loyal to him in the Netherlands decided that a good part of home rule would continue, while envoys would come to London to represent the Netherlands in the Parliament.

However, such measures never came to be. The trouble in the Netherlands had stirred up the royalists. At Canterbury, an uprising had began. It was chaotic enough that King Charles I set sail from France with a small army to lead it, but was only on land for two hours before more recent news determined his return to France. It is brutally put down. However, it causes Oliver Cromwell to re-evaluate the situation at home.

Within a matter of months, Cromwell dissolves the Parliament, believing it to have become a den of royalists. Accepting a constitutional document from a group of army officers, he assumes the title Lord Protector of the Commonwealth of England, Scotland, and Ireland, agreeing to share his power with a Council of State and a Parliament of one house.

Another month passes and councils at the Hague arrive at the conclusion that the provinces should be reformed. Zeeland and Utrecht were absorbed by Holland, Groningen by Friesland, and Gelre by Overijssel. Thus, the Commonwealth of England, Scotland, Holland, Ireland, Friesland, and Overijssel was born.

At this point, while in the Netherlands a transition period kept most of the original policies, the state of Britain changed from the Commonwealth to the Protectorate, a dictatorship resting on the power of the army. The buildup of the military that William II had began in the Netherlands, and many had died to stop, would continue. Within only a few years the Netherlands would become every bit of a dictatorship as well. Strict Puritan rule is imposed upon the people.

Furthermore, another month passes and even more radical changes take place. Cromwell divides the country into eight military districts, each under the administration of a major general who enforces the rigidly puritanical laws and collects taxes. With Royalist unrest in many across the country, harsh measures are sometimes imposed by the major generals of the various military districts, alienating significant sections of the population. [This actually occurred in 1655.]

1654 - The Third English Civil War
More Royalist uprisings occur, and spread. Gaining strength from the quick, sweeping, radical acts of the Lords Protector Cromwell, as well as royalist anger towards the purging of the Orangists in the Netherlands, some actually survive. Charles I takes his chance; he fears the Commonwealth taking the Netherlands and consolidating power. An army of expatriates accompanies him and sails for England. Landing in Dover, Royalist supporters rally to the King, while anti-Royalists rally to Cromwell. The Third Civil War begins.

In other news, the Commonwealth formally absorbs the New Netherlands into their other colonies on the American continent. Dutch ships open up in part to trade easier with English ports, increasing the status of life in the colonies. Dutch investors rush to make money off of the English colonies, while English Puritans make steady advancements into leveling the population difference between New England and the New Netherlands.

[No war breaks out between England and Spain here, as happened in the real world, leaving Dunkirk in Spanish hands. Jamaica also remains nominally Spanish, although in reality they had abandoned it by this point. Because of this abandonment it becomes a haunt for pirates and other unsavoury types, even more so than in the real world, and without at least nominal British oversight.]

War begins between Russia and Poland over the Ukraine after the Russian Army seizes the city of Smolensk.

1655
Uprisings up and down the country support the King, but the army is well-used to suppressing this sort of thing by now, and many of the people still support Cromwell, turning neighbour against neighbour yet again. Major battles take place at Naseby, Ireton and in London.

[The Great Fire does not occur here as in Puritan World A, as such, this bastion of Parliamentarian forces prevails, and with more morale due to the conquest of the Netherlands and less Royalist morale due to the lack of a Great Fire, the Parliamentarians keep a strong advantage.]

French astronomer Abbé Jean Picard measures the length of a degree of longitude and computes from it the size of the Earth, at the same time defining a prime meridian of longitude running through Paris.

1656
With signs that the Parliamentarians were slowly but suredly holding their weight, King Charles I decides to end hostilities, lest he burn out his armies, and he sails back to France. Nevertheless, large amounts of damage have wrecked a good part of the country. The flames of Royalist support has not disappeared, however, it was merely because of the army that the dictatorship of Oliver Cromwell survived. Indeed, a decent percentage of the British populace support King Charles I.

The war between Poland, Ducal Prussia, Russia and Transylvania ends.

The Dutch abandon attempts to oust the Portuguese from Ceylon (Sri Lanka).

1657
The Commonwealth extends toleration to Jews, Protestants (non-Anglicans), and Roman Catholics, upon aggressive measures from the Dutch communities.

The Netherlands left the Third Civil War with a little bit more approval for the Cromwell regime. Their ships and armies had played a small but significant part in the civil war, and returned with veterans. Some Orangists and anti-Cromwell forces still remain in the Netherlands, especially in the southwest. However, the Dutch army has expanded greatly, and the same military dictatorship found within Britain is very apparent in the former Provinces as well.

Cromwell reduces the money being invested in the Dutch navy, so as to try and finally gain a balance against them on the seas, while pushing forward the idea of Dutch land armies so that expansion could be possible, as well as security. Dutch colonies are visited more frequently with British ships, and many attempts are made at mixing fleets and focusing on combined efforts in mercantilism abroad.

The Fire of the Long Sleeves lays waste to three-quarters of Tokyo's buildings and kills an estimated one hundred thousand people.
 
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Darkest

Banned
I hope Tony Jones approves, btw. I'm making this only out of appreciation and respect.

They're not larger than Russia in terms of land area (though they are in terms of population, industry and so on). As for them taking all that territory, again it's largely unpopulated and far from Europe, plus they do it over the same sort of time that those places were colonised in OTL. So what's the problem?

You make a good point. I just would have expected a slightly quicker, stronger response to the quickly-growing power on the other side of the ocean from the European empires... especially when earlier steam ships decrease the amount of travel time so much earlier as well. Its not that big of a problem.

The minutia is where all the fun is, anyways. Making an ATL is only half the experience if you never bother to come up with well-thought-up rulers, family trees, national holidays, cultural taboos, particular dialects of langauge, &c., &c.

Oh, definitely, I agree wholeheartedly. Its fun to pull some creative stuff, and it can be often very plausible (how many times did crazy, improbable stuff happen in history? Very frequently. Especially with Hitler's rise.)
 
Another month passes and councils at the Hague arrive at the conclusion that the provinces should be reformed. Zeeland and Utrecht were absorbed by Holland, Groningen by Friesland, and Gelre by Overijssel. Thus, the Commonwealth of England, Scotland, Holland, Ireland, Friesland, and Overijssel was born.

Wouldn't it make more sense for Overijsel to be absorbed by Gelre instead of the other way around? Gelre used to be a duchy while Overijsel was part of Utrecht. (sorry I am always a bit pro Gelre, both my parents come from Arnhem and i grew up in a village that until the batavian republic used to be part of gelre (now it is in limburg btw).
And is Drenthe now part of Friesland or overijsel/gelre? I would guess overijsel/gelre (even though now (2006) it probably rather would be part of friesland groningen)
 
Drenthe was sort of a province that wasn't a province. It had the same autonomy as a province had (unlike Dutch brabant, limburg or flanders), but wasn't allowed to vote because it was considered too poor (unlike holland, gelre, zeeland, friesland, groningen, overijsel or utrecht).
 
You make a good point. I just would have expected a slightly quicker, stronger response to the quickly-growing power on the other side of the ocean from the European empires... especially when earlier steam ships decrease the amount of travel time so much earlier as well. Its not that big of a problem.

It's a fair point. On the other hand, the New Commonwealth is far away, and Europe does have its own share of rivalries and wars on the continent itself to distract it. For example, Russia growing huge and powerful, rivalries between different European colonies and so on...
 

Darkest

Banned
True. Europe taking out one much closer behemoth in favor of another? Its more plausable than I initially thought. BTW, Tony, what do you think about my version of your ATL that you hinted at in the past? Anglo-Dutch Commonwealth, do you think it would actually survive? Or would it die off?
 
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