An Alternate History of the Eastern Front (World War II)

I know how the Eastern Front was during World War II by reading books and using Internet sources of information. I wonder how an alternate scenario of the Eastern Front would turn out. So my question is, what is going to happen? Are we going to see the Soviets prevail over the Germans as they did? Or the possibility of a German victory?
 
I know how the Eastern Front was during World War II by reading books and using Internet sources of information. I wonder how an alternate scenario of the Eastern Front would turn out. So my question is, what is going to happen? Are we going to see the Soviets prevail over the Germans as they did? Or the possibility of a German victory?

I think the really interesting timelines are about an even slightly more prepared red army. Stalin even just allowing commanders to carry out some basic preparations, which many wanted to carry out OTL, would have resulted in a very different Barbarossa.
 
There are a number of different possibilities here, one of which is that the Germans do decide to attack toward Moscow and ignore the Soviet troops in the south and the result is a Soviet strategic and possibly tactical victory instead of the capture of the city. Another possibility is if the Germans decide on a Moscow offensive in 1942 and thus do exactly what the Soviets wanted them to do, and to see how much the Wehrmacht's remaining superiority against an improving Soviet force matters in this case.

For the USSR, there's the possibility that the Battle of Moscow turns into the complete destruction of Army Group Center, the possibilities from earlier relief of Leningrad or even structuring their forces in 1941 with the bulk of Soviet armor in the north as opposed to the south and the problems that would pose for the German offensive there.

The really interesting question is if the Germans attack on May 15th against a Soviet army ready, willing, and prepared to meet them and the results that would have. The Soviets in 1941 are very badly positioned, saddled with obsolete weaponry and with abysmal communications, and yet in the few areas where Soviet generals disregarded Stalin's prohibitions and decided to risk it they actually did fairly well for themselves. So 3 million Germans at their peak but against 3 million Soviets, ready and waiting with the aforementioned issues would be a very interesting scenario.
 

Daffy Duck

Banned
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Agree with the previous post except not taking Leningrad ff the north.

In my humble opinion, that was the key to the 1st phase of Barbarossa. Cutting off the northern ports (seizing their supply dumps) and conquering Leningrad were critical. Had they done both would have put a hurtin' on the Soviets

Blairwitch did a TL where the forces previously designated for the Afrika Korps were added to Army Group North (a fine piece of work) for the express purpose of taking Leningrad.

Again, just 2 cents worth. :)
 
Agree with the previous post except not taking Leningrad ff the north.

In my humble opinion, that was the key to the 1st phase of Barbarossa. Cutting off the northern ports (seizing their supply dumps) and conquering Leningrad were critical. Had they done both would have put a hurtin' on the Soviets

Blairwitch did a TL where the forces previously designated for the Afrika Korps were added to Army Group North (a fine piece of work) for the express purpose of taking Leningrad.

Again, just 2 cents worth. :)

Two divisions wouldn't make that enormous a difference anywhere on the front, not when Zhukov's in charge of the defense of Leningrad and 1,000,000 died in the city as it was. Two more divisions in front of Moscow just worsen the German defeat in the winter there, two more divisions in the south aren't going to alter German weaknesses there given the bulk of Soviet troops in 1941 were also there.
 
A bunch or people were starving in Leningrad in December 1941 OTL. Instead of using the two extra divisions on a direct assault on Leningrad. If the German use the two motorized divisions to sieze Volkov and/or Tihkvin (holding it longer than OTL for Tikvin) severing the Ladoga supply line. I wonder if the place starves. Of course supply for the extra German divisions might be tricky here too.
 
A bunch or people were starving in Leningrad in December 1941 OTL. Instead of using the two extra divisions on a direct assault on Leningrad. If the German use the two motorized divisions to sieze Volkov and/or Tihkvin (holding it longer than OTL for Tikvin) severing the Ladoga supply line. I wonder if the place starves. Of course supply for the extra German divisions might be tricky here too.

It did starve IOTL. The Germans, if they have those two divisions available will use them for Operation Typhoon, not for Leningrad and all that means is perhaps the Soviets encircle Rommel when he outruns his supply lines and badly overextends himself hoping to look good in Hitler's eyes.
 
How about one set during Barbarossa where Stalin decides against horribly pointless and tragic offensives?

:confused:

I think you mean around the time of the Battle of Moscow and he decides to limit the Soviet offensive to Army Group Center. In this case the Germans could well wind up destroying that army group even if everything else in the German front stays as OTL, and to repair that will pretty much kill the Nazi war effort dead. The Soviets may well win the war in Europe before the United States even has the potential to launch Operation Torch.
 
:confused:

I think you mean around the time of the Battle of Moscow and he decides to limit the Soviet offensive to Army Group Center. In this case the Germans could well wind up destroying that army group even if everything else in the German front stays as OTL, and to repair that will pretty much kill the Nazi war effort dead. The Soviets may well win the war in Europe before the United States even has the potential to launch Operation Torch.

No, I mean the offensives during Operation Barbarossa itself. The ones that the Germans flowed around during their advance. Those netted a large portion of trained manpower.
 
No, I mean the offensives during Operation Barbarossa itself. The ones that the Germans flowed around during their advance. Those netted a large portion of trained manpower.

Which ones would those be? The one case of that that I remember was at the Battle of Smolensk and that particular German victory killed their attack in the center for a few months. The Soviets even won a local victory at Yelnya during that offensive.
 
Which ones would those be? The one case of that that I remember was at the Battle of Smolensk and that particular German victory killed their attack in the center for a few months. The Soviets even won a local victory at Yelnya during that offensive.

IIRC, there were a number of immediate counteroffensives, which created some initial trouble for Army Groups North and South.

In my opinion, two early points of departure stand out -

1. Stalin either does not launch the purges, or, more likely, does launch the purges but limits the military purges to the politically-important officers. So Tukhachevskiy still gets purged but far fewer other officers get purged. So the Nazis lose, and much faster than in our time line.

2. Stalin does launch the purges and does not order an invasion of Finland. So it doesn't become clear how badly the purges have destroyed the RKKA. So Barbarossa might take Moskva and Leningrad and the winter battles in the center might occur somewhere between Moskva and Gorkiy.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Which ones would those be? The one case of that that I remember was at the Battle of Smolensk and that particular German victory killed their attack in the center for a few months. The Soviets even won a local victory at Yelnya during that offensive.

Stalin repeatedly order offenses in the Summer of 1941. These local offenses accomplished little besides consuming German Ammo and time. These were not grand offenses like the destruction of Army Group Center, but local offense of division or corp level.
 
IIRC, there were a number of immediate counteroffensives, which created some initial trouble for Army Groups North and South.

Maybe in the North but in the South the key point is that the bulk of Soviet troops were there and one of the few Soviet generals with the balls to disregard Stalin post-Purges (Kirponos) was also there.

In my opinion, two early points of departure stand out -

2. Stalin does launch the purges and does not order an invasion of Finland. So it doesn't become clear how badly the purges have destroyed the RKKA. So Barbarossa might take Moskva and Leningrad and the winter battles in the center might occur somewhere between Moskva and Gorkiy.

For Stalin not to invade Finland requires a restructuring of Soviet international politics that butterflies away WWII as we know it. No Case White, let alone Case Barbarossa.

Stalin repeatedly order offenses in the Summer of 1941. These local offenses accomplished little besides consuming German Ammo and time. These were not grand offenses like the destruction of Army Group Center, but local offense of division or corp level.

See, the thing I'm curious about with that is that the one case where these orders were actually able to be carried out in the Battle of Smolensk was a strategic Soviet victory though the Germans won it tactically. So like with Hitler, not all of Stalin's superficially dumbass orders were dumbass, both of those people got to where they were for a reason.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
....


See, the thing I'm curious about with that is that the one case where these orders were actually able to be carried out in the Battle of Smolensk was a strategic Soviet victory though the Germans won it tactically. So like with Hitler, not all of Stalin's superficially dumbass orders were dumbass, both of those people got to where they were for a reason.

If you want to get more, go get a detailed book that has the blow by blow of the first year of the war. The troops were deployed forward with orders to attack, not defend. Some generals executed this order. As Stalin sent more troops forward, he also order them to attack. None of this rise to the level of a general offensive, but many generals tried to execute the orders of Stalin.
 
Two divisions wouldn't make that enormous a difference anywhere on the front, not when Zhukov's in charge of the defense of Leningrad and 1,000,000 died in the city as it was. Two more divisions in front of Moscow just worsen the German defeat in the winter there, two more divisions in the south aren't going to alter German weaknesses there given the bulk of Soviet troops in 1941 were also there.

It represented a panzer corps (plus 500 aircraft) by the africa corps not being created


now in the late september battles of course they would have meant nothing in the grand scale

however, having them attached to 4th panzer army at the start of barbarossa possibly allows Hoeppner to capture Leningrad

Manstein blew through the Baltic Military district advancing 250 miles in 5 days; when he came to the Dvina river he stopped because he had nothing to screen his flanks even though there was very little in front of him

Voroshilov (idiot) sent all the forming militia and anyone who could carry a gun (although many didn't have guns) in a panic move to try and form a defensive line on the river; adults in the stavka (Zhukov) ordered this counter manded and withdrew the infantry closer to and inside the city itself where they wouldn't be vulnerable to encirlcement in open country

Manstein sat on the Dvina river for 5 days waiting for other elements of the army to catch up so he could resume the advance, and this allowed the russians to rectify their mistake and still have forces able to defend the approaches to the city

Had the africa corps forces been on Manstein's right flank, they along with Manstein's 56th panzer corps could have launched a double envelopement against the militia divisions on the northern bank of the river, pinned them against it and compelled their surrender which would have effectively left no fighting forces between themselves and Leningrad, which in turn probably allows them to capture the city off the march a la Orel
 
Which ones would those be? The one case of that that I remember was at the Battle of Smolensk and that particular German victory killed their attack in the center for a few months. The Soviets even won a local victory at Yelnya during that offensive.

the battle of brody is the big one... started off well for the Russians, but the combination of Kliest and the LW proved too much for them
 
If you want to get more, go get a detailed book that has the blow by blow of the first year of the war. The troops were deployed forward with orders to attack, not defend. Some generals executed this order. As Stalin sent more troops forward, he also order them to attack. None of this rise to the level of a general offensive, but many generals tried to execute the orders of Stalin.

I know Stalin sent the orders. As I understood it, however, the nature of the surprise attack made the orders impossible to carry out and Soviet troops were either surrounded or fought desperately with no real cohesion, and there was no organized plan of attack.

It represented a panzer corps (plus 500 aircraft) by the africa corps not being created


now in the late september battles of course they would have meant nothing in the grand scale

however, having them attached to 4th panzer army at the start of barbarossa possibly allows Hoeppner to capture Leningrad

Manstein blew through the Baltic Military district advancing 250 miles in 5 days; when he came to the Dvina river he stopped because he had nothing to screen his flanks even though there was very little in front of him

Voroshilov (idiot) sent all the forming militia and anyone who could carry a gun (although many didn't have guns) in a panic move to try and form a defensive line on the river; adults in the stavka (Zhukov) ordered this counter manded and withdrew the infantry closer to and inside the city itself where they wouldn't be vulnerable to encirlcement in open country

Manstein sat on the Dvina river for 5 days waiting for other elements of the army to catch up so he could resume the advance, and this allowed the russians to rectify their mistake and still have forces able to defend the approaches to the city

Had the africa corps forces been on Manstein's right flank, they along with Manstein's 56th panzer corps could have launched a double envelopement against the militia divisions on the northern bank of the river, pinned them against it and compelled their surrender which would have effectively left no fighting forces between themselves and Leningrad, which in turn probably allows them to capture the city off the march a la Orel

I'm not sure Hitler would have put that corps with Army Group North, nor am I sure that the Germans getting their chance to starve Leningrad to death and level it brick by brick is going to end well for anyone. Hitler sent his panzer corps all along the front so there's no guarantee if they start off in Barbarossa that they'd wind up in Leningrad, nor is there the guarantee that Rommel's preferences to ignore his supply base wouldn't lead to a smashing embarrassment at the very least and possibly outright defeat at the hands of the Soviets. Soviet attacks by the point Manstein would have been in a position to do that were bleeding Guderian and other generals around the front badly. Rommel's ignorance of logistics would kill him on the Eastern Front.

the battle of brody is the big one... started off well for the Russians, but the combination of Kliest and the LW proved too much for them

That's one of the generals I'd referred to as having been willing to put his troops on alert before the Germans got there. So yes, I already knew of that one and that's one reason why Army Group South's advances were less dramatic than those of Army Groups Center and North.

To clarify-I'm not disagreeing that the Soviets did launch offensives, nor am I disagreeing that their results were tragic and pointless. I am disagreeing with the notion that this was done deliberately as the cause was the communications disruptions of Barbarossa at least in the first few days of it.
 
I know Stalin sent the orders. As I understood it, however, the nature of the surprise attack made the orders impossible to carry out and Soviet troops were either surrounded or fought desperately with no real cohesion, and there was no organized plan of attack.



I'm not sure Hitler would have put that corps with Army Group North, nor am I sure that the Germans getting their chance to starve Leningrad to death and level it brick by brick is going to end well for anyone. Hitler sent his panzer corps all along the front so there's no guarantee if they start off in Barbarossa that they'd wind up in Leningrad, nor is there the guarantee that Rommel's preferences to ignore his supply base wouldn't lead to a smashing embarrassment at the very least and possibly outright defeat at the hands of the Soviets. Soviet attacks by the point Manstein would have been in a position to do that were bleeding Guderian and other generals around the front badly. Rommel's ignorance of logistics would kill him on the Eastern Front.



That's one of the generals I'd referred to as having been willing to put his troops on alert before the Germans got there. So yes, I already knew of that one and that's one reason why Army Group South's advances were less dramatic than those of Army Groups Center and North.

To clarify-I'm not disagreeing that the Soviets did launch offensives, nor am I disagreeing that their results were tragic and pointless. I am disagreeing with the notion that this was done deliberately as the cause was the communications disruptions of Barbarossa at least in the first few days of it.

Hitler could put the additional panzer corps anywhere I suppose; panzer group 4 was the smallest panzer group, so it makes sense that they would gain the reinforcement; it's certainly not asb

Within that scenario the Germans wouldn't have to encircle Leningrad, there would be little if anything in front of them and they can just take the city on the march like Guderian did with Orel in the opening stages of typhoon

Rommel wouldn't be in a position to fuck himself over, he isn't in some half independent command where he can just ignore high command; he would only be a corps commander with a highly respected panzer group commander to answer to if he doesn't behave himself or act within in the plan (Hoeppner)
 
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