An Alternate For Want of a Nail

In For Want of a Nail, the victory of the British Army under General Burgoyne at Saratoga in 1777 leads to the eventual failure of the American Revolution and the migration of many former rebels to New Spain. At length, the British colonies become the Confederation of North America while the Patriot colony grows into the United States of Mexico. In Sobel’s work, the CNA becomes a sort of super-Canada that maintains continuous democratic government, avoids getting involved in a major war since the 1850s, and has had two black heads of government by the 1960s. Meanwhile the USM combines the less savoury elements of the OTL USA with Latin America to create a militaristic state prone to frequent periods of authoritarianism and that fails to abolish slavery until well into the 20th Century. Indeed, by 1970 Mexico is under the rule of a military regime whose leader is reminiscent of both Juan Peron and (though Soble could not have predicted this) Vladimir Putin. This seems to be a bit of an (albeit minor) alternate history trope, where whenever OTL United States is divided into two competitors, the northern one tends to be scrupulously liberal and "enlightened" while the southern, more-Latin influenced state is much more authoritarian with whiffs of caudilloism and banana republicanism (a lot of Confederate independence TLs but also Decades of Darkness). But could things have been otherwise?

After all, it is the United States of Mexico that creates a multiracial state in the 1820s under Andrew Jackson forcing the small, dominant Anglo minority to accept a political role for the vast Hispanophone majority. Meanwhile, CNA has its bouts of xenophobia and state-sponsored violence most infamously in Henry Gilpin’s suppression of the labour movement in the Northern Confederation and the later Starkist terror. In fact, if Sobel’s numbers are to be trusted, Gilpin is far by the bloodiest leader of either the CNA or the USM with some 42,000 deaths attributable to him while he is equally as warlike in foreign policy as President Pedro Hermion.

This suggests to me that some moderate divergences in the middle of the 19th Century in the world of For Want of a Nail could produce a timeline where the situations of the CNA and USM are flipped by the late 20th Century. To start with, Sobel portrays the leaders of CNA in the period from the end of the Rocky Mountain War to John McDowell’s election as far more corrupt than their Mexican counterparts who generally seem clean and even reformist (witness Arthur Conroy but also the late Kinkaid administration).

Let’s say labour agitation continues in the CNA into the 19th Century and the increasingly corrupt Liberal governments responds in appropriately brutal Gilpinist fashion while also regularly rigging elections and maintaining strict property qualifications for voting. In the Southern Confederation, the nascent “People’s Coalition” movement is crushed when establishment politicians use racialist rhetoric to divide the white and black farmers while engaging in a similar sort of White Terror (in both senses of the word!) as in the cities of the north. The reactionary factions of the Liberal Party prevail thanks to appealing to the middle classes and small farmers with the prospect of a worker and black uprising, preventing the rise of McDowell much less Ezra Gallivan and thus retarding all but the most modest of reforms. In terms of foreign policy, the continued domination of pro-business Liberals mean that closer ties to the British Empire are retained with the eventual result that the CNA gets an “administrative” role in many British colonies in the Americas and the Pacific. In the long run, the CNA becomes a semi-authoritarian state with one-party domination and an imperialistic foreign policy which nonetheless by its sheer size and wealth comes to become dominant in the British Empire and revelling in its opportunity to achieve imperial glory.

Meanwhile, happier circumstances prevail in Mexico. Here, we can identify a more direct divergence during the 1875 election when Carlos Concepcion does not secede from the Liberty Party to create his own radical, Mexicano dominated Worker’s Coalition that eventually becomes a revolutionary guerrilla movement. Instead he fully backs the liberal reformist Thomas Rogers who goes to defeat Kinkaid and win the election. Rogers proves an enormously successful President who abolishes slavery, implements land reform that breaks up the great latifundia and turns peons into small farmers, and even implements implements basic anti trust legislation. While Rogers ends up facing terrorism from both the right and the left (including some rebellions and coup attempts), his assassination in 1881 as he campaigns for reelection turns him into a martyr President just like Hermion a generation before. The result is wholesale political backlash and even the Kramer Associates falling into suspicion (though they truly had nothing to do with the assassination). In this Mexico, the assassination of Rogers serves to bolster pro-democratic forces thus preventing the rise of Benito Hermion to power while it resolves major social problems a generation or so earlier than it does in FWOAN. In the long run, Mexico becomes a highly progressive country with full universal manhood suffrage and strong civil liberties despite often rowdy and even violent domestic politics. We also see a divergence in immigration policy between the CNA and USM as the former (as happens in the actual FWOAN TL) turns nativist and strongly restricts immigration in the late 19th Century while the latter encourages all sorts of immigrants including large numbers of Germans, Italians, Russian Jews, Chinese, and even some disaffected CNA radicals. Of course, this policy isn’t entirely for liberal reasons since like OTL Argentina, many in the USM government hope to “whiten” the country and reduce the overwhelming demographic dominance of the mestizo majority.


Haven’t fully fleshed out the ideas beyond this but some other suggestions:


-Both the USM and CNA have a foothold on the Pacific in this TTL (the Rocky Mountain War is fought over both TTL’s Oregon Territory as well as territories to the west). This means that both powers compete in the Pacific as well as the Western Hemisphere.

-Starting in the late 19th Century, Great Britain and the CNA sees a pan-Anglo Saxon movement that not only calls for the unity and continued expansion of the Empire but believes in the eventual destiny of the Anglo-Saxon race to rule the entire globe, borrowing elements from Social Darwinist as well as Moral Imperative thought. A particularly romantic movement known as the Knights of the Round Table emerges that calls for the restoration of real to the King-Emperor to bring about the symbolic return of King Arthur (obvious inspiration from OTL’s Japanese Imperial Way faction)

-Not sure how Europe or the rest of the world should develop. Seems to be that having the equivalent of the French Revolution happen only in 1880 is too late. Perhaps have TTL’s version of Napoleon/Fanchon stage an invasion of Britain (supported by Irish and republican risings) that is eventually beaten back but still necessitates the evacuation of the court to CNA thus symbolizing the transfer of the seat of power?

Thoughts? Suggestions? (Would especially love it if For All Nails writers comment, since I hope to read through the timeline for some suggestions)
 
The UK and the remaining states like Victoria may be slowly economic strength by being isolated from the world market and the rise of computers.

Mexico may be the leading developers of electronics along with Formosa and the Asian Tigers.

Germany begins to moderate its rule over Europe similar to For All Nails by installing a friendly French government and reducing the occupation forces.
 
In For Want of a Nail, the victory of the British Army under General Burgoyne at Saratoga in 1777 leads to the eventual failure of the American Revolution and the migration of many former rebels to New Spain. At length, the British colonies become the Confederation of North America while the Patriot colony grows into the United States of Mexico. [1] In Sobel’s work, the CNA becomes a sort of super-Canada that maintains continuous democratic government, avoids getting involved in a major war since the 1850s, and has had two black heads of government by the 1960s. [2] Meanwhile the USM combines the less savoury elements of the OTL USA with Latin America to create a militaristic state prone to frequent periods of authoritarianism and that fails to abolish slavery until well into the 20th Century. Indeed, by 1970 Mexico is under the rule of a military regime whose leader is reminiscent of both Juan Peron and (though Soble could not have predicted this) Vladimir Putin. [3] This seems to be a bit of an (albeit minor) alternate history trope, where whenever OTL United States is divided into two competitors, the northern one tends to be scrupulously liberal and "enlightened" while the southern, more-Latin influenced state is much more authoritarian with whiffs of caudilloism and banana republicanism (a lot of Confederate independence TLs but also Decades of Darkness). But could things have been otherwise?

[4] After all, it is the United States of Mexico that creates a multiracial state in the 1820s under Andrew Jackson forcing the small, dominant Anglo minority to accept a political role for the vast Hispanophone majority. Meanwhile, CNA has its bouts of xenophobia and state-sponsored violence most infamously in Henry Gilpin’s suppression of the labour movement in the Northern Confederation and the later Starkist terror. In fact, if Sobel’s numbers are to be trusted, Gilpin is far by the bloodiest leader of either the CNA or the USM with some 42,000 deaths attributable to him while he is equally as warlike in foreign policy as President Pedro Hermion.

This suggests to me that some moderate divergences in the middle of the 19th Century in the world of For Want of a Nail could produce a timeline where the situations of the CNA and USM are flipped by the late 20th Century. To start with, Sobel portrays the leaders of CNA in the period from the end of the Rocky Mountain War to John McDowell’s election as far more corrupt than their Mexican counterparts who generally seem clean and even reformist (witness Arthur Conroy but also the late Kinkaid administration).

Let’s say labour agitation continues in the CNA into the 19th Century and the increasingly corrupt Liberal governments responds in appropriately brutal Gilpinist fashion while also regularly rigging elections and maintaining strict property qualifications for voting. In the Southern Confederation, the nascent “People’s Coalition” movement is crushed when establishment politicians use racialist rhetoric to divide the white and black farmers while engaging in a similar sort of White Terror (in both senses of the word!) as in the cities of the north. The reactionary factions of the Liberal Party prevail thanks to appealing to the middle classes and small farmers with the prospect of a worker and black uprising, preventing the rise of McDowell much less Ezra Gallivan and thus retarding all but the most modest of reforms. In terms of foreign policy, the continued domination of pro-business Liberals mean that closer ties to the British Empire are retained with the eventual result that the CNA gets an “administrative” role in many British colonies in the Americas and the Pacific. In the long run, the CNA becomes a semi-authoritarian state with one-party domination and an imperialistic foreign policy which nonetheless by its sheer size and wealth comes to become dominant in the British Empire and revelling in its opportunity to achieve imperial glory.

Meanwhile, happier circumstances prevail in Mexico. Here, we can identify a more direct divergence during the 1875 election when Carlos Concepcion does not secede from the Liberty Party to create his own radical, [5] Mexicano dominated Worker’s Coalition that eventually becomes a revolutionary guerrilla movement. Instead he fully backs the liberal reformist Thomas Rogers who goes to defeat Kinkaid and win the election. Rogers proves an enormously successful President who abolishes slavery, implements land reform that breaks up the great latifundia and turns peons into small farmers, and even implements implements basic anti trust legislation. While Rogers ends up facing terrorism from both the right and the left (including some rebellions and coup attempts), his assassination in 1881 as he campaigns for reelection turns him into a martyr President just like Hermion a generation before. The result is wholesale political backlash and even the Kramer Associates falling into suspicion (though they truly had nothing to do with the assassination). In this Mexico, the assassination of Rogers serves to bolster pro-democratic forces thus preventing the rise of Benito Hermion to power while it resolves major social problems a generation or so earlier than it does in FWOAN. In the long run, Mexico becomes a highly progressive country with full universal manhood suffrage and strong civil liberties despite often rowdy and even violent domestic politics. [6] We also see a divergence in immigration policy between the CNA and USM as the former (as happens in the actual FWOAN TL) turns nativist and strongly restricts immigration in the late 19th Century while the latter encourages all sorts of immigrants including large numbers of Germans, Italians, Russian Jews, Chinese, and even some disaffected CNA radicals. Of course, this policy isn’t entirely for liberal reasons since like OTL Argentina, many in the USM government hope to “whiten” the country and reduce the overwhelming demographic dominance of the mestizo majority.


Haven’t fully fleshed out the ideas beyond this but some other suggestions:


-Both the USM and CNA have a foothold on the Pacific in this TTL (the Rocky Mountain War is fought over both TTL’s Oregon Territory as well as territories to the west). This means that both powers compete in the Pacific as well as the Western Hemisphere.

-Starting in the late 19th Century, Great Britain and the CNA sees a pan-Anglo Saxon movement that not only calls for the unity and continued expansion of the Empire but believes in the eventual destiny of the Anglo-Saxon race to rule the entire globe, borrowing elements from Social Darwinist as well as Moral Imperative thought. A particularly romantic movement known as the Knights of the Round Table emerges that calls for the restoration of real to the King-Emperor to bring about the symbolic return of King Arthur (obvious inspiration from OTL’s Japanese Imperial Way faction)

-Not sure how Europe or the rest of the world should develop. Seems to be that having the equivalent of the French Revolution happen only in 1880 is too late. Perhaps have TTL’s version of Napoleon/Fanchon stage an invasion of Britain (supported by Irish and republican risings) that is eventually beaten back but still necessitates the evacuation of the court to CNA thus symbolizing the transfer of the seat of power?

Thoughts? Suggestions? (Would especially love it if For All Nails writers comment, since I hope to read through the timeline for some suggestions)

I like a lot of your ideas, but (and I hate to burst your bubble) a lot of conceptualizing done here actually does take place in "For All Nails" (at least, to some extent), especially in the realm of Mexico not being a third-world racist dirthole (or even all that Latino-dominated, given how many Anglo or Anglo-influenced characters there are courtesy of Noel Maurer), the United Empire going kinda hard-right-militant (thanks, Sir Gold?), and a Mexican-North American detente between President Moctezuma and Governor-General Skinner (which, given the issue with determining the Viceroy and Gold's bungling of that affair, is IMO both the most likely and preferable turn of events).

A few comments in sequence, if you don't mind:

1) I would point out two things here. One, I never bought the notion of a failed American Revolution ever leading to a "Canada-esque" country. IMO the Brits would've consolidated the colonies perhaps, but they would've evolved into constituent countries entirely within the United Kingdom (in the same manner as England, Wales, Ireland, etc. are today) since the whole REASON Canada and other dominions exist is due to the Revolution teaching lessons on running an empire that wouldn't have been learned in the FWoaN-verse. Secondly, while black North Americans do better in this TL, the CNA's record towards Native Americans is IMO worse than the OTL United States; many more massacres and deaths from neglect/malfeasance, even if only implied (and in FAN, all but declared if one reads long enough).

2) There's a whole entry (with a follow-up from an in-universe character's POV debating it) dedicated towards clarifying the myth of Mexican dictatorships and militarism as being more anomalous than not. Furthermore, regarding that military regime in power mentioned....well, I won't post spoilers, but nothing lasts forever :cool:.

3) I've noticed that trope too, and while it isn't all that common, I admit I find it both infuriating and repetitive. Probably why I tend to enjoy TLs where the U.S. isn't split up/preempted even when it probably should be.

4) I agree that the USM would HAVE to be more "tolerant" than one might expect of a "Southron-flavored" nation (FWIW I tend to think of the USM as a gigantic, great-power Texas in nature); I should point out that I still do not at all buy the attitude of pro-slavery and anti-black people that the USM holds in the story (including the original by Sobel). Even though the country would've seen a ton of Anglo influence, it still would've been "Mexicano" and Hispano majority. Mexico practiced a BIT of slavery at one point, but was never codified or upheld to any real extent, relying on peonage far moreso. I cannot find the notion of holding That Institution until the 1920s remotely plausible; in my head canon, it exists until then on paper only but is practically dead in usage except in eastern Jefferson and the Yucatan (thankfully, the FAN-verse seems to support this during one vignette).

5) I really hate Sobel's use of that term for Euro-Indigenous mixed people, it literally just means "Mexican" in Spanish, makes as much sense as calling a Metis person from Manitoba "Canadien" :rolleyes:..."Mestizo" is the obvious and accurate title.

6) Even though this could work, and sounds plausible (in the FAN-verse, Mexican immigration policy prefers Hispanophones OR anybody with a Bachelor's Degree), I have to wonder what the demographics impact would ultimately be, especially since it would IMO work in detriment to the Indigenous population. Then again, in my head canon the Anglos (and English-speaking white folks) make up between 25-27% of the population maximum, even if English has a "higher" social standing historically in the country.

EDIT: Despite my nitpicks and gripes above, I like your "what-if of a what-if" idea; you should definitely run with it, even if it isn't part of the "For All Nails" canon!
 
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I like a lot of your ideas, but (and I hate to burst your bubble) a lot of conceptualizing done here actually does take place in "For All Nails" (at least, to some extent), especially in the realm of Mexico not being a third-world racist dirthole (or even all that Latino-dominated, given how many Anglo or Anglo-influenced characters there are courtesy of Noel Maurer), the United Empire going kinda hard-right-militant (thanks, Sir Gold?), and a Mexican-North American detente between President Moctezuma and Governor-General Skinner (which, given the issue with determining the Viceroy and Gold's bungling of that affair, is IMO both the most likely and preferable turn of events).

First of all, thank you for the extensive response and I apologize for taking some days to respond to you. I've read parts of For All Nails and skimmed it somewhat so some of these elements have stood out to me and some have not. I do find it a rather underappreciated alternate history project given its one of the most extensive online timelines I've seen along with say Decades of Darkness.

A few comments in sequence, if you don't mind:

1) I would point out two things here. One, I never bought the notion of a failed American Revolution ever leading to a "Canada-esque" country. IMO the Brits would've consolidated the colonies perhaps, but they would've evolved into constituent countries entirely within the United Kingdom (in the same manner as England, Wales, Ireland, etc. are today) since the whole REASON Canada and other dominions exist is due to the Revolution teaching lessons on running an empire that wouldn't have been learned in the FWoaN-verse.

I think that's a possibility but even a failed revolt might give the British pause and combined with concerns about communications, encourage a dominion type model. I do think that without an independence United States to complain, the monarchical nature would be more explicit. Hence by 1970 in my scenario, the CNA has become the *Empire* of North America under the rule of the British King-Emperor.

Secondly, while black North Americans do better in this TL, the CNA's record towards Native Americans is IMO worse than the OTL United States; many more massacres and deaths from neglect/malfeasance, even if only implied (and in FAN, all but declared if one reads long enough).

Agreed.

2) There's a whole entry (with a follow-up from an in-universe character's POV debating it) dedicated towards clarifying the myth of Mexican dictatorships and militarism as being more anomalous than not. Furthermore, regarding that military regime in power mentioned....well, I won't post spoilers, but nothing lasts forever :cool:.

I think that's one of my favourite entries in the FAN series, giving the USM a very unique Scotch-Irish/Spanglish Calvinist culture by taking into account how OTL's trends of the explosive growth of Evangelical Christianity in Latin America could be speeded up. I actually didn't realize the connection between that vignette and the Walter Russell Meade's theory of a "Jacksonian tradition" in American foreign policy until I reread the entry recently but the Meade thesis was a huge eye-opener for me when I came across it a few years ago. I find Meade's theory eerily prophetic of Donald Trump among other things.


4) I agree that the USM would HAVE to be more "tolerant" than one might expect of a "Southron-flavored" nation (FWIW I tend to think of the USM as a gigantic, great-power Texas in nature); I should point out that I still do not at all buy the attitude of pro-slavery and anti-black people that the USM holds in the story (including the original by Sobel). Even though the country would've seen a ton of Anglo influence, it still would've been "Mexicano" and Hispano majority. Mexico practiced a BIT of slavery at one point, but was never codified or upheld to any real extent, relying on peonage far moreso. I cannot find the notion of holding That Institution until the 1920s remotely plausible; in my head canon, it exists until then on paper only but is practically dead in usage except in eastern Jefferson and the Yucatan (thankfully, the FAN-verse seems to support this during one vignette).

What's stranger is that Sobel has "Mexicanos" be the strongest defenders of the "peculiar institution"! I can easily imagine black/Mexicano animosity over competition for jobs and the like but that would probably lead Mexicanos to advocate a form of OTL's "free soil" doctrine combined with "settling" freemen somewhere far away. Agreed the central political struggles will be over peonage and land reform not slavery.

5) I really hate Sobel's use of that term for Euro-Indigenous mixed people, it literally just means "Mexican" in Spanish, makes as much sense as calling a Metis person from Manitoba "Canadien" :rolleyes:..."Mestizo" is the obvious and accurate title.

For that matter, the Mexicano/Indian divide is also kinda weird unless its specified as a difference between agrarian/settled peoples vs nomadic/"wild" tribes. And why are white Hispanophones called "Hispanos" anyways? Criollos would be more historically accurate there...

6) Even though this could work, and sounds plausible (in the FAN-verse, Mexican immigration policy prefers Hispanophones OR anybody with a Bachelor's Degree), I have to wonder what the demographics impact would ultimately be, especially since it would IMO work in detriment to the Indigenous population. Then again, in my head canon the Anglos (and English-speaking white folks) make up between 25-27% of the population maximum, even if English has a "higher" social standing historically in the country.

I tried to crunch the population numbers given for the USM in Sobel's book a few days ago and they are *extremely* far-fetched (a population of 113 million even including dependencies by 1910!). While earlier economic development and introduction of sanitation should produce an earlier population boom among the indigenous/mestizo population, I concluded that you could only get a state resembling FWOAN's USM with a population and economy rivaling the CNA through a combination of both natural growth and a massive immigration wave comparable to OTL's USA and especially Argentina whose population grew by a factor of 8 in the late 19th/early 20th Centuries. I was thinking that as a rule, Germanic and Celtic groups would assimilate into the Anglo community while Italians and other Southern European groups would gravitate towards the Hispanophone community. Not sure where the Slavs would end up though I think the Ashkenazi Jews would become English speaking.

EDIT: Despite my nitpicks and gripes above, I like your "what-if of a what-if" idea; you should definitely run with it, even if it isn't part of the "For All Nails" canon!

Thank you. I hope to use this thread to plan and post further!
 
First of all, thank you for the extensive response and I apologize for taking some days to respond to you. I've read parts of For All Nails and skimmed it somewhat so some of these elements have stood out to me and some have not. I do find it a rather underappreciated alternate history project given its one of the most extensive online timelines I've seen along with say Decades of Darkness.

I won't lie, it's taken me some time to read through the timeline (and I've only hit on probably 60% of the TL total) going back to 2013-ish. I agree that it is under-appreciated as an AH in its own right, with the FAN-verse being a far superior "alternate history" in the details (although I should point out that I still like the original novel for its attention to economic developments and "attempt" to depict an academic AH work). In fact I find its setting to be practically tailor-made for ASB ISOTs given its different-yet-familiar setting for that extra "weird" factor (e.g. ISOT-ing the FWoaN/FAN-verse 1970s Western Hemisphere to the 1930s Draka-verse).


I think that's a possibility but even a failed revolt might give the British pause and combined with concerns about communications, encourage a dominion type model. I do think that without an independence United States to complain, the monarchical nature would be more explicit. Hence by 1970 in my scenario, the CNA has become the *Empire* of North America under the rule of the British King-Emperor.

Perhaps, I definitely agree that a monarchy in union with Britain is more likely than a commonwealth Dominion/quasi-republic set-up like the CNA. However, regarding the bit I've underlined, by the time the Brittanic Designs were debated, international communications were getting exponentially easier every day (long-range telegraph networks, steam/coal-powered courier ships, etc.) so I don't think that issue is all that salient by the time such any union (be it a separate Monarchy OR a consolidation a la "Hail, Britannia") would've taken place. Then again, I love that TL as well, and like the idea of the USM (as it should be, anyway) co-existing in a universe much like that, so YMMV.


I think that's one of my favourite entries in the FAN series, giving the USM a very unique Scotch-Irish/Spanglish Calvinist culture by taking into account how OTL's trends of the explosive growth of Evangelical Christianity in Latin America could be speeded up. I actually didn't realize the connection between that vignette and the Walter Russell Meade's theory of a "Jacksonian tradition" in American foreign policy until I reread the entry recently but the Meade thesis was a huge eye-opener for me when I came across it a few years ago. I find Meade's theory eerily prophetic of Donald Trump among other things.

Indeed, which helps my mental immersion in the FAN-verse given that I live in San Antonio (which, given the multiple descriptions of Mexican society in TTL, astonishingly matches the day-to-day living conditions in South Texas, IMO). The idea of the Upland South influencing Mexican society so deeply (even outside "Anglo" circles) is pretty unique, and I think reflects just how much of a "glue" the Wilderness Walk and Jefferson provided the USM at the time of its birth, despite its less-than-noble side effects.


What's stranger is that Sobel has "Mexicanos" be the strongest defenders of the "peculiar institution"! I can easily imagine black/Mexicano animosity over competition for jobs and the like but that would probably lead Mexicanos to advocate a form of OTL's "free soil" doctrine combined with "settling" freemen somewhere far away. Agreed the central political struggles will be over peonage and land reform not slavery.

I'm in full agreement; you'd never see a defense of chattel black slavery in any way, shape, or form. That doesn't mean no racism or ethnic conflict, but does mean a more "Northern US" notion of race relations (i.e. get those *insert racial slur here* off of our God-given land, it's for free-soil WHITE farmers!), albeit skewed towards mestizos, criollos, and Anglos combined. And of course, the nature of a mixed society like Mexico's means that the standard for "passing" is much less difficult to achieve compared to the USA/Canada (as President Moctezuma found out), which means being light-skinned goes a lot farther despite having otherwise evident African features (i.e. a "pigmentocracy" in practice if not necessarily rhetoric). That applies, I think, to Mayans as well, given the OTL Mexican...record towards them in the Yucatan and OTL Oaxaca. And it would also allow an "option" for Louisiana, Belizean, and Guadaloupe/Martinique Creole peoples to not fall under any "one-drop rule" nonsense.


For that matter, the Mexicano/Indian divide is also kinda weird unless its specified as a difference between agrarian/settled peoples vs nomadic/"wild" tribes. And why are white Hispanophones called "Hispanos" anyways? Criollos would be more historically accurate there...

Well there is that, of course. However, there's an ethnic difference between most "mestizos" and Indigenas beyond self-determination; the former having some subjective non-Indigenous features, proving European ancestry going back XX generations, etc. vice being a declared member of a given tribal group (socially and/or linguistically), which is fairly complicated I agree. And there's no hard rule against somebody of largely native ancestry identifying as mestizo in OTL Mexico, so that might still be the case (a cultural determiner as much as an ethnic one). And FWIW, I don't see the "Hispano" (as you noted, more accurately called "criollo") population surviving as a separate cohort by the mid-20th century, having been split between the Anglos (forming a just plain "white" or "Euro" population in all likelihood) and "Mexicanos"/mestizos (probably based on socio-geographic grounds, i.e. which group is more prominent where one lives).


I tried to crunch the population numbers given for the USM in Sobel's book a few days ago and they are *extremely* far-fetched (a population of 113 million even including dependencies by 1910!). While earlier economic development and introduction of sanitation should produce an earlier population boom among the indigenous/mestizo population, I concluded that you could only get a state resembling FWOAN's USM with a population and economy rivaling the CNA through a combination of both natural growth and a massive immigration wave comparable to OTL's USA and especially Argentina whose population grew by a factor of 8 in the late 19th/early 20th Centuries. I was thinking that as a rule, Germanic and Celtic groups would assimilate into the Anglo community while Italians and other Southern European groups would gravitate towards the Hispanophone community. Not sure where the Slavs would end up though I think the Ashkenazi Jews would become English speaking. Thank you. I hope to use this thread to plan and post further!

Well, 113 million isn't THAT much greater than 97 million people in the USA's 1913 (a ~16 million difference), but I see your point. I would point out that this means that the mestizo population might only sit at around 51-62% the population at most, but I can't imagine them dropping below half given known events in the early 20th century still equating high birth rates. What I think might impact Mexican demographics the hardest isn't the growth of an immigration trend per se, but the aftermath of the Global War (which IIRC saw over two million Mexican men in the 18-24 demographics being slain) that might lead to a skewing of demographics away from the traditional majority by a few percent here and there. Your "slotting" of immigrant group identities makes sense to me, but I think there might be a geographic component as well (i.e. which entrepot the immigrant enters influences whether they merge with the Anglo or Hispano aspects of society, which in turn becomes IMO a solely linguistic identifier instead of an ethnic one by the 1970s).

And by all means, keep those ideas coming, it's interesting to consider and discuss! I did mean to ask, where do you think the Pacific frontage for the USM and CNA would be? I'd picture somewhere between California and Alaska.
 
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