An alternate Croatia-Hungary union

Giladis

Banned
Hello everyone.

I have been following this site for some months now and have decided to create my first alternate history as background for a tabletop war gaming campaign based on the Warhammer Ancients rules set.

I have made basic ideas but wanted to hear your thoughts how would the events I am working on affect the surroundings and have an impact on history a hundred years later when I am placing the story for the campaign.

The POD I have chosen is year 1077 when king Geyza I of Hungary died and is succeeded by his brother Ladislaus I, but he gets poisoned by agents of Solomon, who is currently residing with the Pechenegs and is planing his return to Hungary to take the throne.

Using his familiy and political links king Zvonimir (a distant cousin of Ladislaus and Geyza and also their brother-in-law ) marches across Drava to support his underaged nephews Coloman and Almos, aged 7 and 9.

A war breaks out between Solomon and Zvonimir. Solomon is supported by the Henry IV of Germany, his brother-in-law. While Zvonimir recieves aid from Boleslaw II, an old ally of his decesed brothers-in-law. The two year war ends in a stalemate. Zvonimir secures the lands west of the Danube, Boleslaw gets the Nitra county while Solomun manages to establish rule in the rest of the realm.

During the war the young hiers of Geyza, go missing from the historic records their fates remaining unknown forever. Following the war the Hungarian nobility crowns Radovan, son of princess Ilona and king Zvonimir as king of Hungary.

Later next year Solomon dies under unexpalined conditions and his Pecheneg ally Kuteshk takes the throne by force. Starting the long enmity of the house of Zvonimir and the Pechenegs as Hungarian nobles would seek to resore their kingdom.

This is the basis of the POD and will be expanding it further, yet I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

Also here are the maps of Croatia and its surroundings in 1078, it is very rough as I only have MS Paint at the moment.

1078.jpg
 
There's going to be a war between Radovan and Kuteshk within a few years for total control of Hungary. Whoever wins consolidates the country. It would be very interesting to have a Patzinak dynasty ruling Hungary though. Wonder how things would go from there.
 

Philip

Donor
Later next year Solomon dies under unexpalined conditions and his Pecheneg ally Kuteshk takes the throne by force. Starting the long enmity of the house of Zvonimir and the Pechenegs as Hungarian nobles would seek to resore their kingdom.

Religion will be an issue here. I may not be reading you correctly, but Kuteshk 'tak[ing] the throne by force' seems a bit off. No one will recognize him as King of Hungary even if he rules the territory of the Kingdom of Hungary. It might be worthwhile to consider what Robert Guiscard is doing. If Zvonimir still allies with him, we could see Normans fighting in Hungary as well. In turn, this will affect the wars between the Normans and the Byzantines as well. Another thing to consider is that POD corresponds closely to the beginning of the Crusades. If the Pope or HRE considers the advance of the Pecheneg to be a serious threat, we could see Christian knights from across Europe descending on Hungary.

Interesting POD that deserves to be explored.

Also here are the maps of Croatia and its surroundings in 1078, it is very rough as I only have MS Paint at the moment.

Get Paint.net now.
 

Giladis

Banned
Another thing to consider is that POD corresponds closely to the beginning of the Crusades. If the Pope or HRE considers the advance of the Pecheneg to be a serious threat, we could see Christian knights from across Europe descending on Hungary.

Are you suggesting a possibility that the first crusade makes Hungary its target rather than the Holy Land.


On the matter of furthering the time line I was considering to keep Zvonimir and Robert as allies as it was in OTL, at the same time I will not be keeping Pechenegs in Hungary for long as they are due to be overrun as well as much of the Pannonian plain by the next wave of the steppe people, the Cumans.

In a way I will be trying to see if it is possible to have a continuing succession of various nomad people in Pannonia rather than geting an established sedentary state.
 

Philip

Donor
Are you suggesting a possibility that the first crusade makes Hungary its target rather than the Holy Land.

Yes and no. I can't really see the pope being able to develop the theology of crusade with Hungary as the first target. However, I can see the HRE (especially one who supported Solomon) offering conquered lands in Hungary to knights and minor nobles in exchange for their loyalty. Getting the Pope to agree might be a bit tougher. Certainly he would not object to the HRE liberating the Christian Hungarians from their pagan overlords. However, the Pope would also have to take care to avoid alienating the Croatians and their claim to the Hungarian Crown -- The Great Schism is still fairly new at this point, and Croatian allegiance to Rome rather than Constantinople is tenuous. Angering Zvonimir might force him to seek Byzantine patronage.

Edit: It just occurred to me that this is right around the time of the Investiture Controversy. Papal and Imperial motives concerning Hungary will definitely be affected.

On the matter of furthering the time line I was considering to keep Zvonimir and Robert as allies as it was in OTL, at the same time I will not be keeping Pechenegs in Hungary for long as they are due to be overrun as well as much of the Pannonian plain by the next wave of the steppe people, the Cumans.
It might also be worth considering the Pechenegs retreating into Hungary when pushed by the Cumans. In this case, there is a good chance of the Pechenegs being assimilated.

In a way I will be trying to see if it is possible to have a continuing succession of various nomad people in Pannonia rather than geting an established sedentary state.
To achieve this, I think you need wide spread destruction to reduce the Hungarian population. It doesn't have to pillaging and burning. Perhaps the Cumans bring a mini-version of the Black Death with them. The Hungarians (and to a lesser extent, the surrounding Europeans) are devastated. The Cumans, who have already been exposed to the disease, are not as susceptible.

This is an interesting POD that can go many ways.
 

Giladis

Banned
Testing my map making skills.

I found out I had Gimp on my PC, my pc-fu is weak so learning photoshoping goes slowly.

This is something I created today.

It depicts the kingdom of Sclavonya following the wars of late 11th and early 12th centuries, lets say 1160.

Croatian kings have lost much of the coast to the Byzantine revival but have managed to spread into the Slav populated borders of the HRE.

In addition the kingdom changed name to reflect that Sclavonya has eclipsed Croatia as the most important "province" and it also unintentionally provided non-ethnic named country other Slavs in the vicinty can relate
to and indentfy with.
SCLAVNYA.jpg
 
Bright day
I do not think there is reson for a name change. All other kingdoms which started out of single tribe kept their tribal name. English, French, Czechs, Poles, Russians etc.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Beside a large part of the population won't be Slavs. My guess is 40% (split evenly between Croats and Slovenians), 15% German and 40% Magyars, and 5% Latins.
 

Giladis

Banned
As I am slowly working on the time line (I think I might be going to much into details) I made three that follow the story. The story is somewhat different that presented in the first post but similar.

The starting map showing OTL Carpathian basin in 1077
Hrvatska1077B.jpg



The situation following a 5 years struggle between Croatia-Poland-Normans-Pope on one side and HRE-Solomon on the other. The thing is ended with Pecheneg conquest of Solomon's Hungary. In the mean time Byzantium and Doclea had a confrontation.
Hrvatska1083C.jpg



Situation in 1121 after a new round of civil war that saw Magyar Hungary (ruled by Coloman) somewhat restored under Polish dominance. Doclea in no more, one of its provinces Rascia rose to power but is more or less making a balancing act between Croatia and Byzantium, similar thing for the Pechenegs just between Byzantium and the Cumans. Almos got his own principalty to rule as a reward for supporting king of Croatia agaisnt his brother. Istvan (son of Solomon, didn't exist OTL) vassal of the Cumans trying to get the throne of Hungary.
Hrvatska1121A.jpg
 
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