An Alternate Ain Jalut

So, what next?

The only ideas I've got as to what might happen are, in the long run, we might see a more Christian Middle East (due to the Mongols favoring Eastern Christians and possibly converting themselves) and a more Islamic Europe (if the Golden Horde seeks to regain prestige by conquering, say, Poland).
 
So, what next?

The only ideas I've got as to what might happen are, in the long run, we might see a more Christian Middle East (due to the Mongols favoring Eastern Christians and possibly converting themselves) and a more Islamic Europe (if the Golden Horde seeks to regain prestige by conquering, say, Poland).

Nogai (who was Muslim but pro-Christian-alliance, much like the later Ilkhans) tried vs. Hungary, and it didn't work. I don't know whether Poland is prepared better or worse than Hungary, but it won't be very easy the second time around and harder every subsequent time after that.

Muslim Central Europe seems unlikely, but split-and-vassalized Poland, Hungary and Lithuania a-la Rus could be a likely outcome of major Golden Horde victories.
 
Okay, perhaps Poland is pushing it a bit, but how about Muslim Ukraine or the Baltic coasts?

If Lithuania is still pagan at this point, I can imagine their reaction to ANOTHER aggressive monotheism coming at them from a different direction. Perhaps they can play the Golden Horde and the Teutonic Knights off against each other?
 
:confused:OK, now I'm really confused. Are you calling the Assyrian Church Nestorian or Orthodox? because the Syriac church (which I believe is another name for what you're calling Assyrian) is IIRC Monophysite, and why anyone calls them 'Orthodox', I'm sure I don't know. (But they do, of course, which confuses things highly.) IIRC, Nestorians are on the other side of Monophysites theologically, although I'd have to go look them up to check.

If you're saying that they'd think they could get along better with the Nestorians (whom they'd hope they could bring into the fold) than the 'stiff-necked' (i.e. won't bow to the Pope), heretical (i.e. monophysite) local Syriacs, then I could certainly believe that.

The differences with the Greeks (i.e. Greek Orthodox) church were almost entirely political rather than theological. (Well, OK, the status of the Pope has a strong theological component, but at heart it's political.)

Edit: Getting into mediaeval church politics and Christological controversies isn't helping advance your TL. I should probably apologize for sidetracking it.
Assyrian != Syrian church.
Assyrian did not denounce Nestorianism (and was generally called Nestorian). However the theology was revised by Babai into something that is not quite Nestorian and they're also not monophysite. This is the source of the confusion. It was the Assyrian Church (based in Persia) as I understood it, that was the one that spread out to the east. It's Nestorian in the sense that it posits a different greater division about the nature of Christ than what was decided at Ephesus and later at Chalecedon (I think).

Here's what I mean.
After the Council of Ephesus (431), the Church of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, which had hitherto been governed by a catholicos under Antioch, refused to accept the condemnation of Nestorius, cut itself and the Church to the East of it off from the Catholic Church. In 498 the catholicos assumed the title of "Patriarch of the East", and for many centuries this most successful missionary church continued to spread throughout Persia, Tartary, Mongolia, China, India, developing on lines of its own, very little influenced by the rest of Christendom.
Perhaps I was confusing the Syrian with Assyrian in regards to whether the Crusaders thought the could be brought back under the Roman Church. But I still think there is enough evidence to show that a more lasting alliance could have been forged with this group (assuming this is what the Mongols were). Since Constantinople has already been sacked by this PoD there is already no going back to the Greeks. I think there are differences beyond political, the filioque for example. Anyhow, more warmth toward these "Nestorians." In Raptor of Spain when I talk about Nestorians it's these guys that I mean.
 
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tentative update


Chapter V: Times They Are A-Changin’
Greatness is nothing unless it lasting.” - Napoleon Bonaparte

1285-1289: In China the last vestiges of the Song have been crushed. The Yuan Dynasty is one of the largest in Chinese history, and the first to conquer Japan. Unfortunately, the Yuan are unable to totally enjoy their triumphs. The Ilkhanate is beginning to appear as a challenger to its appearance as the “first” khanate. Normally one of the most submissive of the Khanates, the Ilkhans have grown increasingly militant and are trying to impose their will on both the Golden Horde and the Chagatids. To add to their woes, many of their attempts to conquer the Khmer and the Vietnamese have failed.

The Sultanate of Delhi has struck back at the Chagatids, scoring several victories and gaining back much of the territory that they lost in the invasion of the 1280’s. The Chagatai Khanate was weakened by its own civil conflicts of the past few years as a Muslim faction and a traditionalist Pagan faction fought over the Khanate of the Chagatids. Experiencing similar unrest to what the Ilkhanate did in the early 1280’s and late 1270’s, eventually the Muslim faction harnessed popular support and won the civil war.

The Muslim Rebellions have finally ended. The Ilkhan was forced to provide serious compensations to many of his Muslim subjects in order to bring peace to his realm. They are no longer subject to the harsh religion-based taxes of the past, they are given the freedom to practice their religion, and they now have complete legal rights comparable to those of Christians. The Ilkhan Arghun is leaning on his vassals in Cilicia, Antioch, and Jerusalem (the Egyptians had already been forced to adopt these reforms by their somewhat desperate situation). The Cilicians quickly acquiesced, as did the Antiochenes. These two states were submissive to the Ilkhanate because often not only did they respect its great authority, they greatly needed its influence to prevent a revanchist Jerusalem from engulfing them both. Jerusalem has refused to amend its laws regarding Muslims, increasing the tension between it and its nominal liege. Also, although its Muslim subjects had gained many new rights, Muslim nobility amongst the Mongolians were still heavily disfavored by the Ilkhanate. Most of these Muslim nobles eventually emigrated to the Chagatai Khanate, where they would receive more favorable treatment. Many of these nobles were viewed as criminals by the Ilkhanate, and Arghun Khan demanded that they be returned and executed for treason. The Chagatids refused and war (which had been escalating for years since the inconclusive end of their last conflict, the increasingly bellicose behavior of the Ilkhans who wished to assert their authority, and the opposed religions) began between the two khanates in 1288. The early stages of the war were dominated by the Ilkhanate, but eventually the Chagatids were able to divert enough armies from their Indian front the blunt their advance.

The Kingdom of Jerusalem continues its rise. It has become one of the most stable and wealthy states in the Middle-East drawing. Conrad III’s wife Mary has given him two new sons, in 1286, and 1289. He has laid claim to Egypt by rights of inheritance through his wife Mary and her first-born Godfrey grandson of Kitbuqa. Yet the Ilkhan Arghun reasonably fears the unification of Egypt with his most defiant vassal and his enabled the heirs of Khugen, supposed temporary successor of Kitbuqa first Mongol king of Egypt. This has infuriated Conrad III, but he still fears a complete break with the incredibly powerful (albeit somewhat morbid) Ilkhanate. Speaking of Egypt, large chunks of been claimed due to the deployment of three tumens (30,000 men) to conquer it. There are still significant holdouts in the western part of the country, many of the Mamluk petty lords supported by the Mongol Khan of Tripolitania, who fears a reckoning that may come of his rather open rebellion if a land link is established to him across North Africa.

Charles of Anjou made attempts to unify Sicily. The only barriers in his way were the Aragonese and the Genoans. To deal with the Genoans, he sold his nominal over lordship to the Duchy of Achaea in exchange for their portion of Sardinia. Unfortunately for him the Aragonese were much more implacable. He attacked swiftly into their possessions but was soon excommunicated by the Pope. He triumphed in Sardinia and then even moved on to besiege Rome. A crusade was called against Charles, and the decimation of his realms was saved only by his (extremely) timely death in 1289. His son Charles II realized his untenable position and immediately began making concession to the Papacy and the other Ghibbelines. He ceded Sardinia to a partition between the Genoese and Pisans (probably for the sake of spiting the Aragonese). He had to give up many of his inherited possessions in northern Italy, and in Tuscany a portion of a separate Duchy of Tuscany was established and part of the Duchy was granted to the Papacy. Charles II of Anjou was confronted with a collapsing realm, and granted the Kingdom of Tunisia to his brother Phillip. He retained the territories of Naples and Sicily, and was busy asserting his sons right to Hungary, presuming his territories to be safe after such a substantial trimming-down.

The Byzantine Empire has succeeded in re-unifying through marriage with the Despotate of Epirus. Although it maintains some autonomy domestically, by and large its affairs are run from Constantinople. Elsewhere in the Byzantine Empire, raids from the increasingly aggressive petty emirs of the disintegrating Selchuk Sultanate have become a major nuisance even coming threateningly close to Nicaea. The only remaining Latin state in the East is the Duchy of Achaea, propped up by the Genoese.

The Teutonic Order has continued to capitalize on the increase on Crusading enthusiasm by expanding further into Lithuania and even Poland.

War has erupted between the English and French in 1286. To add to this tumultuous conflict, the Scottish were invaded by Norway to assert their monarch’s claims to the throne of Scotland after an inheritance crisis and the Scots appealed to England for aid. England has embraced a two-front war, and Norway and France have entered into a more formal alliance intended to stifle the ambitions of the Angevin kings of England. Initially the war has begun poorly for the Britons, with French and Norwegian progress.
 
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Done and done

1290Alternate.GIF
 

Blair152

Banned
An Alternate Ain Jalut

Chapter I: Fall of the Mamelukes

“And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them.”
Isaiah XIX, 4

1259: Julian of Sidon was born with a larger amount of intelligence, thus he did not raid Mongol ruled Syria. In this raid during our timeline, he killed the Mongol general Kitbuqa’s grandson. As a result of this the Lordship of Sidon was raided, considerably chilling relations between the Ilkhanate and Outremer.

1260: The Mameluk Sultan, Qutuz, demands free passage through Outremer and the realms of Acre, in order to attack the diminished army of Hulagu which is also missing its general. He also requests free victuals and water rights for his army. In addition he proposes a possible alliance between Acre and Egypt. A meeting of the barons of Outremer is quickly convened, and there were a few who proposed an outright alliance, and even more who said that the Mamelukes should be granted free passage. But eventually, due to the persuasive arguments of the master of the Teutonic Order Anno of Sangerhausen (who had learned the benefits of a pro-Mongol policy in Armenia from King Hethouem of Cilicia) he convinced them the Mamelukes were the far greater threat, and the Mongols even had many Christians in their ranks. The Mamelukes thus sent a large army through the lands of Outremer, which ravaged it quite badly. Acre was sacked to an extent, and many small holds were destroyed. In response to this awful perfidy, the Barons of Acre sent a small force of around 500 Knights, and 4000 Men at arms to assist the Mongols against the Mamelukes. Due to information brought by the Christians, the Mongols could not be ambushed, and their numerical inferiority abetted somewhat. The Christians fought with a vengeance against the Mamelukes with their equally vicious Mongol allies. Qutuz was captured and executed immediately on the battlefield, but not before mocking Kitbuqa with how fleeting his accomplishments would be (he thought). In the midst of an inglorious retreat, Baibars was crowned new caliph of Egypt in the absence of Qutuz. At the end of the year the remnants of Kitbuqa’s forces seize Damasccus and the rest of Syria.

1261: Kitbuqa launches an offensive into Egypt using the help of the Pisan and Genoese fleets. A combined Armenian-Mongol-Crusader-Cypriot force seizes Alexandria in February. Now using command of Egypt’s coastal ports, they attempt to starve out the Mameluke Caliphate. Egypt offers a conditional surrender to Kitbuqa, including surrender of Alexandria and the Sinai. He refuses, and offers Outremer extensive territorial incentives to them and Cilicia if they will stay in the war and aid him in his conquest of Egpyt. With the help of an additional two tumens from Hulagu, complemented with a 15,000 man force mustered from Cyprus, Cilicia and Acre he commences his campaign. Also, King James I of Aragon and a small force sent by Louis IX came with armies, with whom was brought young Conradin, heir to the throne of Jerusalem and claimant to Sicily, which had been usurped by his bastard uncle. In a massive battle for Egypt, both sides were assembled on the banks of the Nile. Baibars’ army, and the man himself, acquitted themselves honorably. Yet in the end the victor was Kitbuqa. Cairo was razed, and given much the same treatment as of Baghdad. Egypt had been largely conquered by the end of 1261, as well as Syria. The allied forces were momentarily stifled at Homs and Hama, yet their resistance did not last long, for large reinforcements arrived. To the Kingdom of Jerusalem/Acre, she was given all land north of the Sinai, south of Aintab, west of Druz, and to the Mediterranean Coast. The issue of Cypriot independence was set to be resolved at a later date.

1262: The Golden Horde, upon hearing of the sack of Cairo, declared war on the Ilkhanate. They did so because of on top of the intolerable treatment given to Cairo, was the awful treatment of Baghdad, after which the Golden Horde outright demanded the Ilkhanate cease its wars against the Muslim world. Hulagu’s armies outright ignored this ultimatum, and the Muslim Golden Horde, led by pious Berke Khan, was enraged. Unless all Mameluke territory was immediately returned (they demanded) it would be war. This was an impossible ultimatum for the Ilkhanate. It was truly war, and the disintegration of the Great Khanate was upon the world. At the start of the year Hulagu returned from the Kuriltay which crowned Kublai as the new Grand Khan, and crowned Kitbuqa Lord ofn Egypt. He recognized that while the Ilkhanate was mighty it couldn’t single-handedly rule all of the Middle East. His official title is “The High King of Egypt, under the grand Royal Ilkhan”. Also, under pressure from the Mongols to resolve their civil disputes and unite under the legitimate ruler, Conradin is crowned the new King of Jerusalem, at 12 years of age. The coronation takes place in a regal ceremony in the Holy Sepulchre, retaken for the first time in decades for Christendom. The Patriarch presides over ceremonies. This was done under the condition Kitbuqa serves as regent during Conradin’s four year minority. He is also given the title of “Co-Protector of the Levant and the Near East” along with Kitbuqa. Towards the end of this year, skirmishes began in the Caucasus between the Golden Horde under Berke Khan and the Ilkhanate and the forces of Hulagu Khan.

Chapter II: Civil War

“No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” – Thomas Hobbes


1263: At the beginning of the year most of the crusading forces returned home, some stayed, optimistic about the chances of this truly new Kingdom of Jerusalem. A few, though, were unhappy about her state of semi-vassalization to the Nestorian (and thusly apostate) Mongol Kitbuqa. Kitbuqa also had recently wed Euphrosyne Palaiologina, only legitimate daughter of the newly reinstated Michael VIII Palaiologos. She was a Christian, of course, and further added to the complex religious tableaux that was Egypt. In Outremer, tensions rose between the realm of Cyprus and the Kingdom of Jerusalem. By this point Cyprus had become a fairly sovereign kingdom in its own right, and was not going to yield all authority to the Kingdom of Jerusalem without protest just because the Mongols told them to do so the way Antioch had. They also were still somewhat powerful in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, as the current king’s aunt (Isabella of Lusignan) was serving as the regent of Jerusalem right up until the arrival of Conradin. The current regent of Cyprus, Hughues de Poitiers, was quite an influential and forceful man. For a short time, tensions rose, for Hulagu Khan disliked the thought of an entirely independent (and possibly defiant) state existed so closely to his somewhat tenuous empire and so insisted that Cyprus be incorporated into either Jerusalem or Egypt. All parties involved (except perhaps Hulagu, he cared little for the intricacies of small-state diplomacy) knew incorporation into Egypt would not work, because Cyprus was by now thoroughly European. Neither Hulagu nor Hugh de Poitiers were men much for compromise. Luckily though, the current King of Cyprus Hugh II and Conradin were of the same age, and were both –in effect- orphans. They sympathized with each other to a great deal and formed a fast friendship. This led to Cyprus pledging, if not fealty, allegiance to the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and defused a potentially sticky situation. The war between the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde began in earnest this year, when Hulagu Khan advanced with a large force north into the Caucasus Mountains to punish Berke Khan for his awful transgressions against the Ilkhanate. He amassed a large force, supplemented with reinforcements from Kitbuqa. He marched north, up through the pass of Derbend to punish the impertinent Berke. Hulagu surrounds and smashes Berke’s forces on the Terek River. In this battle the commanding Golden Horde general, Nogai Khan (nephew of Berke Khan) was taken prisoner, and treated quite well by Hulagu, due to their common relations. Most of Berke’s forces had managed to escape and he had begun to regroup his army in the large plains of the Golden Horde, yet before he had prepared for another battle Hulagu continued his advance threatening with thrusts into the center of the empire. This forced Berke to escape and attempt to regroup around the capital, Sarai.


His foes advance was proving very difficult to stop once it had gained momentum, and now forces called up from the native Christians of Egypt and Syria, eager to prove their loyalty to the might Ilkhan, enlarged its size. Also around this time, the Genoese fell out of favor with the Mongols because they refused to stop their thriving trade with the Golden Horde. In response to this Conradin (with some slight “encouragement” from Kitbuqa, a dominating presence over the young king to be sure) declared a nullification of all Genoese trading rights in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and Kitbuqa also outlawed them from Alexandria. Most of these rights were either gone forever or given to the declining Pisans (Conradin and his advisors favored the Pisans, who were long-time Ghibellines, or supporters of the Holy Roman Emperor over the Papacy and his agents), but some had been to the hated Venetians. This made up somewhat for their recent loss in Constantinople, and escalated the already acute tensions between Venice and Genoa. The advance of the Ilkahanate’s armies continued largely unhindered, for Berke did not wish to risk another defeat, which could ruin him. By the end of the year Berke was ready for terms. His empire was collapsing around him, as the opportunistic Russians now were rebelling against his rule in their lands, a burden they had always held resentfully.We now may turn our eye to Europe. As was mentioned earlier, tensions between Venice and Genoa have risen to high levels, and a Genoan raid on the Venetian Crete now only increased this. The Venetians were furious over this blatant disrespect of Venetian sovereignty, and demanded an apology and reciprocation immediately. The Genoese earlier had even helped topple the Venetian puppet, the Latin Empire. Many of their ports had switched places, the Genoese moving in the north and the Venetians in the south. Venice declared war between the two Republics, both bitterly jealous over each other’s successes.


Conflicts also began in the Aegean this year, with a Genoese landing on Crete. The powers-that-be in the Levant have declared in favor of the Venetians, and thus the Pisans signed an alliance with the Venetians against the Genoese. King James I of Aragon also arrived home now from his adventures in the Levant, ready to resume his conquest of the hated Moors as soon as he and his armies could recuperate. Conradin now finally reluctantly gave his rights up to the Duchy of Swabia to his step-father Meinhard of Carinthia, yet Conradin still claimed himself as the true heir to the Kingdom of Sicily. He was unlikely to have such an unbelievable stroke of luck in claiming that title as he had his first one, for he was to have hard time of it between the powerful ruler ( and his uncle) Manfred of Sicily (who had stolen the title from Conradin five years prior), and the ruthlessly ambitious titular ruler Charles of Anjou.

1264: At then dawn of the New Year, a peace was negotiated (rather, wrung) from the Golden Horde. Berke Khan relinquished all of his territory in the Caucasus, issued a formal apology to the Ilkhanate, renounced any claims as the Protector of Islam and any alliance he had with the Mamelukes, and also denied the legitimacy of the dubiously honest Al-Hakim, claimed descendant of the deposed Caliphs. Though likely not a true descendant, he was nonetheless a rallying point for the Muslims, and denial by Berke hurt the cause of the few who continued to resist the domination of the Tatar Hordes. Finally, he ransomed back the genius general Nogai Khan (he had been overwhelmed by vastly superior numbers and arms in the battle of the Terek) from the Ilkhanate. Nogai Khan had been greatly ashamed by what had happened, and became occupied with an obsession to regain his former feared and glorious reputation.


The Novgorod Republic had commenced an invasion of the Golden Horde, knowing it was in no proper position to respond with adequate force. Unfortunately for them, peace concluded between the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate shortly after they begin their invasion of the Golden Horde. Several of the other small Russian feudal states also rose against the Golden Horde. Thus, the Golden Horde’s army was mobilized for a raid to teach this Russians a lesson for the impetuousness. They won a great victory, and forced new punishments and taxes upon the Duchies and Republics of Russia. Nogai Khan’s glory lust had been whetted, to an extent. Yet he still hungered for an exhibition against a more worthy opponent than the disunited and weak Russian vassal states.


Also, the Armenians, Georgians, and Circassians rose in favor of the Ilkhanate, with its known high tolerance for Christians. Luckily for them, the Golden Horde was unable to strike back, for their lands were transferred to the Ilkhanate in the peace treaty. In Egypt, Kitbuqa secured many of the remaining Muslim possessions in Syria, and is now adding most of them to his growing kingdom in Egypt, or gifting them to the Kingdom of Jerusalem. He staged minor operations in the Sultanate of Rum, to remind them where their loyalties lay. In the rest of the Middle-East, large backlashes against the native Christians, now being appointed to power across the territory of the Ilkhanate, required increase Tatar military presence in several large Middle-Eastern cities. Many leading Islamists were imprisoned and punished, and their property confiscated for the Ilkhanate. The Ilkhan also staged minor scouting raids into the Nejd. In the Kingdom of Jerusalem, all of the final hold out barons recognized the ultimate authority of Conradin as the new true king, even the powerful Ibelin’s, yet he may have to bribe them further in the future (particularly a possible marriage alliance).


Back in Italy, Pope Urban IV realized this was as good a chance as he would have in a long time to finally rid Sicily of the bothersome Manfred, and recruited Charles to retake the island for the Pope. This was despite the many protestations of Conradin’s supporters, and the increasingly capable boy himself. Unfortunately, not only was he not a strong enough military leader to do so at this point, but he also lacked the support of the Pope, who still held an immature grudge against the Hohenstaufen. Charles of Anjou’s armies began landing in Naples towards the end of this year after a lengthy mobilization period, while Manfred seemed to not take this actually quite serious threat as any real concern to him or his kingdom. A minor setback occurs for Charles of Anjou when Pope Urban IV dies (no divergence from our time line). The necessity for a Papal conclave and thus a temporary stoppage of immediate extra funds to his forces makes him temporarily slow his campaign to oust Manfred from Sicily. Elsewhere in the Mediterranean the Venetian-Genoese war continues with increased fury from both sides. The Genoese suffered a minor blow with the surrender of their benefactors, the Golden Horde, but fought on capturing several key Venetian possessions in the Aegean and even staging a handful of minor raiding expedition in the Dalmations and Adriatic Sea. The Venetians in turn launched some minor land expeditions against the Genoese in the peninsula itself (with the help of their allies the Pisans). They also responded in the Levant, encouraging punitive action by Conradin against the long-time ally of the Genoese, the Hospitallers. There was a minor shift in favor at the court of Jerusalem towards the Templars. Also, there were several major battles in the Aegean between the two mighty fleets, with several islands and colonies switching hands a few times. Despite attempts by several major Christian parties, such as the Pope and the Roman Emperor (the Eastern one, there still isn’t one in the West), their counter-productive and internecine war continued. Eventually they would force major players in the Mediterranean to take sides. Already the Pope, the Guelphs, and Charles of Anjou were showing small signs of support for the Genoese, if to just spite Conradin. Perhaps they were also motivated to prevent any one of the major merchant cities from gaining a dominant share in the power, as Venice was currently leading in the war by a good deal, and the Genoese were on their heels, reeling. Back on other side of the Mediterranean, at the start of the year



James I of Aragon and his two sons had returned from their adventures in Outremer with much experience and a wish to give the Muslims as good a hiding as they had received in the East back home in the West. He captured a great deal of the petty Moorish sultanates and beydoms to the south of Aragon, considerably expanding his power base in the name of all Christendom. If we now turn farther north, in the Grand Principality of Vladimir Suzdal, the Golden Horde’s favored candidate for the throne Yaroslav of Tver falls out of favor, and instead his brother Andrey II of Vladimir takes power. He had a known record of opposing the Golden Horde, and with the Golden Horde’s power falling he became the stronger candidate. Finally, the ever pious Louis IX began preaching for a new crusade, this time to North Africa. He forever regretted he had been incapacitated, unable to be in attendance in person when Jerusalem had been readmitted into the gracious open arms of Western Christendom. He now wished to gain glory for God, and forever push the dreaded Muslims out of the Mediterranean. If no one would join him, a shame, but he would do it all by himself. Yet he wished to gather a great exhibition to forever retake the precious North coast of Africa for the Christ. He managed to somehow wring a vow out of Charles of Anjou, but only once his “affairs” in Sicily had been settled, and he was comfortably able to supply a large crusading force. Edward Longshanks had expressed interest in this adventure, yet was unfortunately preoccupied by the English Civil War. Aragon also was too warn out against the Moors and its previous expedition to Outremer to provide any meaningful assistance to Louis IX. Castile expressed tentative commitments, and yet thus far it looked as if it might be solely fellow Angevins on this war of God.

Chapter III : The Fallout Begins

“Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God.” - Martin Luther

1265- At the dawn of this new year a great tragedy struck the Mongol people. Their great leader Hulagu, who had lead them to myriad great victories and triumphs over their enemies, passed away. Yet his successor Abaqa Khan was likely to be no great disappointment to the many who waited eagerly to see what traits this man, heir to one of the greatest empires on Earth, would possess. Abaqa Khan was Hulagu’s son, and embraced an odd mix of Buddhism infused with a few Christian principles. He was very sympathetic towards the Christian people, and his new wife, Maria Palaiologina, was a Byzantine Princess. He has instituted several anti-Muslim policies, and tended to favor native Christians over administrative positions.
Looks good so far. The Crusaders don't allow the Mamalukes safe passage
through their lines to fight Mongols, maybe?
 
However much of that was through forced conversions and many Copts "converted" to avoid persecution. Now granted even if true Muslims are the Majority by this time it cannot be by much.

That is absolutely, incontrovertibly untrue. There was no forced conversion in Egypt, nor were Copts "prosecuted" into converting. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

By the time of this scenario, Egypt was overwhelmingly Muslim, not "just barely".
 
That is absolutely, incontrovertibly untrue. There was no forced conversion in Egypt, nor were Copts "prosecuted" into converting. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

By the time of this scenario, Egypt was overwhelmingly Muslim, not "just barely".
I have some evidence. I will refute all of your lame points.

1.) "There was no forced conversion in Egypt" First all Christians were forced to pay a steep tax for not being Muslim called the jizya. This alone could force conversion. Secondly, it is not unknown for Muslim rulers to subject certain populations to the sword if they did not convert. A Koran quote "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." 2:193
2.)"Egypt was overwhelmingly Muslim in 1260"
No! Currently Egypt is roughly 10% Christian, so even today they were not "overwhelmingly" Muslim. It must have been much higher in those periods, especially with the Sudan still Christian.
 
I have some evidence. I will refute all of your lame points.

1.) "There was no forced conversion in Egypt" First all Christians were forced to pay a steep tax for not being Muslim called the jizya. This alone could force conversion. Secondly, it is not unknown for Muslim rulers to subject certain populations to the sword if they did not convert. A Koran quote "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." 2:193
2.)"Egypt was overwhelmingly Muslim in 1260"
No! Currently Egypt is roughly 10% Christian, so even today they were not "overwhelmingly" Muslim. It must have been much higher in those periods, especially with the Sudan still Christian.

The tax alone gives the incentive for Christians to convert to Islam.
 
He probably looks at the poll tax as the method of forced conversion because it imposes a penalty absent conversion.

That said I know that during the Ayyubid period there were significant numbers of Christians in Egypt but I don't think they were a majority even then. I do know that the number went down rapidly after the Mameluke (and I am happy the OP translates it that way! Love that word!) ascendancy. Christianity also probably went up during the British rule of Egypt. I'd say closer to 30% Christian in the period but that's just a wild estimate.
 
1) "There was no forced conversion in Egypt" First all Christians were forced to pay a steep tax for not being Muslim called the jizya. This alone could force conversion. 2) Secondly, it is not unknown for Muslim rulers to subject certain populations to the sword if they did not convert. A Koran quote "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." 2:193

1) "Toleration with condition" is not really the same as "forcing conversion"

If anything, Jizya was actually one reason why stream of conversion to Islam sometimes was viewed as unprofitable by the muslim rulers in question.The Umayyads even took it to the extreme by limiting the conversion by basically denying non-Arabized converts proper status as muslims.

To prove that something did happen, is to provide an evidence that it DID happen. What you're doing here, looks like to be pointing out somewhat about WHY the evidence should be there, but without bringing out the evidence itself. That won't do. In addition to that, it's safe to assume that historically the application of Jizya actually was never to encourage conversion, as conversion would reduce its profit. In return for paying Jizya, by Islamic mandate non-Muslims were granted internal independence and liberty from draft, both of which some muslim rulers, especially on the former issue, actually did resent, and tried to break.

2) This only applied to Pagans, principally. In reality, it was not unknown that even muslim rulers did accomodate non Ahl-al-Kitab for political realism, by declaring them dhimmis and treating them like Ahl-al-Kitab. India is the best example of this, if arguably only. (And indeed, such realism wasn't always in application, if not very often....)
 
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