An Alexander goes East

Once upon a time, maybe two years ago, there was this brief forum craze with getting Alexander the Great to China. I vaguely recall responding to this - my basic idea was that you probably couldn't get our Alexander to China, but getting a hypothetical child of his... that might be plausible. The idea being basically this - Alexander lives for another dozen years or so (not wholly unfeasible) and then some of his kids end up fighting over the crown. One in particular goes eastwards, and takes an army into China.

So my first question is this - I'm trying to read as many books as possible on the warring states era - political histories, military histories, social histories - anything that can help me get a grasp on it. Looking for recommendations. If I'm going to pick this idea back up, I'd like to be informed.

A secondary (but less critical topic) is anyone who has any recommendations for books re: the Tarim basin circa 300-200 BCE. I have a lot more confidence in my ability to find good sources for that area than the former.

Now, let me roll this back - I think a Greek conquest of what today is "China" is pretty absurd and crazy. What I'm more trying to do is have a Pyrrhos of Epiros type incursion into China (possibly with some significant short-term conquests) that would put the region on a different historical trajectory as a result.

So far, I've pinned down two main issues that will have to be addressed before I can get a substantial number of Greeks into China:

Distance: we're looking at a few thousand kilometers, and those are not pleasant kilometers. Now, there are certainly overland trade routes and the like in the Tarim basin, and by the Han era at least it seems that the area was capable of sustaining a substantial military presence. Although a desert, the region that is now Xinjiang seems to present logistical difficulties but not impossibilities. Keeping some hodge-podge invading army together across this ordeal definitely raises a lot of questions.

Disproportionate strength: by the end of the fourth century BCE, the Qin are the regional power of regional powers. The annexation of Ba and Shu has given them substantial territory and they just have more resources to draw on. Annoyingly, the first thing any would be Hellenistic conqueror of China (or even just Hellenistic interferor) has to contend with is the Qin. That means armies of hundreds of thousands, well trained and well-organized forces. The only advantage I can see is that the warring-states era armies do over-rely on chariots and mixed units of archers and foot infantry - the kinds of forces that seem obsolete to any Near Eastern general. So despite the organization and quality of warring states era armies, they seem to have some significant tactical issues when it comes to field engagements. I may, of course, be wrong about this. The Chinese states of the period were organized and bureaucratic, and based around the small family farmer with a 5-6 acre plot of land. These farmers, as I understand it, owed military service to what's basically an absolute monarchy. That's a pretty significant well of manpower, and as far as I understand it, pretty unlike the Hellenistic model.


Curious for people's thoughts and recommendations.
 
I was writing at one point a book about this... and this is what I had come up with:

A Greek-Baktrian expedition in the Tarim Basin and then China in the 206-201 period where it becomes embroiled in the Chu-Han contention (basically it becomes a mercenary ally of Liu Bang against Xiang Yu). After his victory, the Baktrian king marries princess Luyuan, daughter of the Emperor, and proceeds in returning to his homeland with the remnants of his army, his new Chinese wife and a couple of thousand of chinese soldiers/craftsmen (mostly prisoners from the Chu side), that settle in Ferghana and Bactria proper. In the next two hundred years the Silk Road becomes not only active as a commercial hub but the main highway for Buddhism and Greek/Chinese knowledge.

I don't see proper conquest as a realistic possibility.
 
Curious for people's thoughts and recommendations.

By expanding into china do you mean modern borders or the existing Chinese polity at the time?

I think getting to china (Zhou or early Qin borders) would be a bigger issue than conquest. However, if he gets there during the warring states period, I can see alexander's son would have a chance at carving out a kingdom in China.

The furthest Macedonian expansion into Asia (under Alex) that I can see happening is this (ignore Rome and Carthage [and the low-ish quality, it's because of the low quality of the base map]):

alex_survives - ROUGH high res.jpg


(so that would be the starting point for this Greek army)
 
I agree that proper conquest isn't a realistic possibility - there's just no chance/reason that we'd see anything remotely similar to say, Alexander's conquest of Persia. Reinforcements are so far away and the drive and interest in building an empire just isn't there. There's not gonna be settler colonies and all that.

Now, I still think that you've got a better bet starting this earlier. I think trying to get anything (even mercenary expeditions) going after Chinese unification is going to have a minimal impact. To get some sort of Greek political/military influence you need everyone totally disunited, it seems.

In terms of cultural influence, realistically you need a lot less. Greco-Buddhist teachings will naturally propagate along the silk road and realistically did OTL as well. Wouldn't be hard to ramp that up. Other Greek philosophies being transmitted probably just depend on a longer lasting Argead or Seleucid state - something to ensure long lasting relative peace in Central Asia.

@Višeslav - that map is wild - I sincerely doubt that Alexander the Great would push into even India that deeply. Hence why my own plan would be something along the lines of a child or grandchild. More likely, imo, is something along the lines of Slydessertfox's timeline where Alexander conquered Arabia and then Carthage. I doubt he'd press far beyond the Indus, for logistical and practical reasons. Maybe after a few decades, but...
 
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thank you for changing it

That`s why I said the furthest I could imagine him going. IK it`s basically ASB. It was originally for a TL (that was never finished) where the empire continues to expand for a few generations.

Then again, the central Asian bit is more plausible, and gives easier access to China than the Himalayas do. so...
 
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Oh man, sorry about messing up your name. Fixed it.

I've always had a hard time imagining multiple generations of expansion under an Argead dynasty - but I wonder if that isn't because the Seleucids themselves tended to struggle, ideologically speaking, with conquest outside of the borders of Seleucus' original territory. I remember reading in the Land of the Elephant Kings about the lengths they had to go to in order to legitimize the conquest of some isles that had never been part of the original territory. A different dynasty might have different motivations.

Crossing the Himalayas just seems miserable - more of a punishment than a meaningful campaign, for soldiers used to Mediterranean climate and altitudes.
 
I think it would be more likely for a successor, or also Alexander himself, to dominate India. India is also a great prize in terms of sheer population size (which mattered a lot for pre-industrial polities), and much more accessible to boot.

If you're dead set on an expedition to China, the question you need to answer is "why not India"?
 
Perhaps it would help if Alexander's son inherited his father's soft spot for foreigners? Might make them more disposed to nomadism, which would soften the distance issue.
 
A new Alexander taking a Western army or army with a Western core through horse archer country? Good luck as the battle of Carrhae demonstrates.

If you're dead set on an expedition to China, the question you need to answer is "why not India"?
Exactly, a fraction of the distance to get there (just hop over the Indus River), no pesky horse archer hordes to have to get through and local knowledge (the Persians had already been on the border for decades). A general will need reliable anti-elephant tactics, but as the Classical era shows, no trouble at all.
 
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