An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Free-er and economically advanced Russia will be a wonderful sight. Unless Roman and Russian interest diverge and set them on a competing paths. Rooting against that.

I'd say Rome should treat Russia as UK treated US - a giant on the rise, confrontation with which would be extremely perilous but cordial relations might be extremely valuable.
I would like also to suggest that they divide there area of interest example being that the balkan, middle east and africa is for rome, while central, northern europe is for russia, and also i would suggest that Rome should try to make russia have their eyes more in the east ie siberia, central asia and china
 
I would like also to suggest that they divide there area of interest example being that the balkan, middle east and africa is for rome, while central, northern europe is for russia, and also i would suggest that Rome should try to make russia have their eyes more in the east ie siberia, central asia and china
True enough, since SE asia, india, middle east, Mediterranean and africa are more of their turf.
 
Ahh, a new Great Power.

With its improved links to Europe and the Byzantine intellectual tradition compared to OTL, Russia ITTL is going to be an absolute bear, no pun intended.

Absent another fracturing, or a nuclear exchange, they’re virtually guaranteed to be a genuine superpower by modern times.
-Even if the Triunes don't send land armies it will take a number beyond reckoning, thousands to depose the False Emperor.
-Tens of thousands.
-But my lord there is no such force...


-A new power is rising! Its victory is at hand!
 
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I'm quite excited for the potential of a Great Power Russia, especially if the Romans aren't going to be Top-Tier, as it is effectively taking its place in the top tier club. It's going to be interesting to see what Russian Civil Wars might be like if there are any in the future because lord knows Rhomanion is going to want to have a Pro-Roman faction in charge if that ever happens.

I wonder if Kiev is going to be a big place for Roman-Russian relations, given the historic conversion there, the geographical location, etc. Not too bad for a second capital either since it should be secure from attack with their allies nearby.

Their geopolitics is going to be interesting with an ally that basically dominates the Carpathians by proxy - a strong southern border and then a reinforced Vistula or Oder border leaves them pretty much untouchable and with plenty of warm water ports under their control, or in the south under the control of "very much is and better stay an ally if it knows what is good for it"

I can't recall, I don't think the Russians control all the way to the Black Sea yet do they? There is another polity there if I remember rightly? I wonder what fate it has if the Russians go south.
 
I'm quite excited for the potential of a Great Power Russia, especially if the Romans aren't going to be Top-Tier, as it is effectively taking its place in the top tier club. It's going to be interesting to see what Russian Civil Wars might be like if there are any in the future because lord knows Rhomanion is going to want to have a Pro-Roman faction in charge if that ever happens.

I wonder if Kiev is going to be a big place for Roman-Russian relations, given the historic conversion there, the geographical location, etc. Not too bad for a second capital either since it should be secure from attack with their allies nearby.

Their geopolitics is going to be interesting with an ally that basically dominates the Carpathians by proxy - a strong southern border and then a reinforced Vistula or Oder border leaves them pretty much untouchable and with plenty of warm water ports under their control, or in the south under the control of "very much is and better stay an ally if it knows what is good for it"

I can't recall, I don't think the Russians control all the way to the Black Sea yet do they? There is another polity there if I remember rightly? I wonder what fate it has if the Russians go south.
I personally hope there aren't any singular super powers, but instead a larger club of great powers, which the Romans I would think would certainly be a part of. Of course Russia does have effectively a continent's worth of resources. I suppose it is only a matter of time and development for them.
 
I personally hope there aren't any singular super powers, but instead a larger club of great powers, which the Romans I would think would certainly be a part of. Of course Russia does have effectively a continent's worth of resources. I suppose it is only a matter of time and development for them.
I'm curious to see how their economic relationship works - at the moment the Romans import a lot from that region, that could increase with the Romans becoming a manufacturing economy during industrialisation, but trailing off again as Russia industrialises itself.
 
Of course Russia does have effectively a continent's worth of resources. I suppose it is only a matter of time and development for them.
I mean natural resources doesn't mean much if you don't have the political ability to actually exploit them/use that wealth to build up your nation. Mexico for example is quite resource rich, but during the age of industrialization it was very unstable leading to it falling behind other contemporary powers.

I'm curious to see how their economic relationship works - at the moment the Romans import a lot from that region, that could increase with the Romans becoming a manufacturing economy during industrialisation, but trailing off again as Russia industrialises itself.
I doubt that tbh. Rhomania controls many of the major trading routes anyway. Plus later down the line once the second wave of industrialization hits thanks to oil, it will boom quite rapidly. It also controls Bulgaria which will likely be a major industrial center in the Empire.

Modern Greece is a major shipping power. In ttl, this power is going to be much stronger with total control of the Eastern Mediterranean and all those port cities. It's vassal in Romania/Wallachia also has the potential for more economic growth which would further boost Rhomania.
 
For the topic of Rome becoming a junior partner of Russia I'd say its not that easy. The harsh weather of Russia and the very grounds still accounts to much of Russia's problem in building and maintaining infrastructure. Even to this day much Russia's infrastructure is in the west or far-east.

The latest investment on the artic ocean is due to rise in tensions and global climate change that the ice caps are melting. Which may not happen as severely as this ttl. Thus eliminating the problem for Russia to buuld more icebreakers and warm ports on the artic ocean.

So overall the suez route should and still is a good source of income. Which would nullify to an extent Russia's TTL ability to completely dominate, Rome's own ability to pursue their own interests.
 
Something to keep in mind with the second industrial revolution is that Russia won't have access to the oil fields of the Caucasus. Georgia will be making a killing selling it to them until they can find and exploit Siberian sources. If China is more stable as we enter the modern period eastern growth will be slowed and without the Pacific coast to stretch to and being heavily embroiled in the politics of western Europe Russia may be slower to develop it's Siberian territories than OTL.

Of course at the moment they've actually expanded into that area more so than OTL, but that was actually the result of Russia being disunited and the east being the only place the tsar had a free hand. With Russia coming together and stepping into the western world a bit more that trend may change. So I guess it's kind of up in the air.

I can't recall, I don't think the Russians control all the way to the Black Sea yet do they? There is another polity there if I remember rightly? I wonder what fate it has if the Russians go south.
Scythia, one of the constituent parts of Russia (are they kingdoms, principalities, something else? I can't remember) controls the Black Sea coast and Crimea. They are far and away the most Roman influenced, but still part of Russia. I remember making a comment ages ago in the thread concerning the breakdown of the Orthodox alliance that the most likely point of friction between Russia and Rhomania would be Scythia drawing closer to their southern neighbors and the tsar wanting to exert more direct control. I think that's still the case, but not something that seems to be on the horizon.
 

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Something to keep in mind with the second industrial revolution is that Russia won't have access to the oil fields of the Caucasus. Georgia will be making a killing selling it to them until they can find and exploit Siberian sources. If China is more stable as we enter the modern period eastern growth will be slowed and without the Pacific coast to stretch to and being heavily embroiled in the politics of western Europe Russia may be slower to develop it's Siberian territories than OTL.

Of course at the moment they've actually expanded into that area more so than OTL, but that was actually the result of Russia being disunited and the east being the only place the tsar had a free hand. With Russia coming together and stepping into the western world a bit more that trend may change. So I guess it's kind of up in the air.


Scythia, one of the constituent parts of Russia (are they kingdoms, principalities, something else? I can't remember) controls the Black Sea coast and Crimea. They are far and away the most Roman influenced, but still part of Russia. I remember making a comment ages ago in the thread concerning the breakdown of the Orthodox alliance that the most likely point of friction between Russia and Rhomania would be Scythia drawing closer to their southern neighbors and the tsar wanting to exert more direct control. I think that's still the case, but not something that seems to be on the horizon.
Scythia does control the Russian Black Sea coast except for the Crimean peninsula, Rhomania got that when the Orthodox alliance crushed the Blue Horde, and Azov, I believe they purchased the city and some hinterland from Scythia. And yes, Scythia is going to be interesting how it gets handled.

As for Siberia, even OTL it was mainly a small military push and fur trappers expanding the eastern border. But considering Russia's western and southern borders ITL they may have an even greater push towards the east, they won't be going on perennial wars with the Ottomans/Crimean Khanate with the resulting depopulation and even their borders with Poland and Prussia seem more stable. So their only real outlet for expansion and growth will be to the east.

Maybe Rhomania, Russia, and Persia can come to an agreement over where they would like the borders to end up in Asia and agree to not step on each other's toes.
 
For the topic of Rome becoming a junior partner of Russia I'd say its not that easy. The harsh weather of Russia and the very grounds still accounts to much of Russia's problem in building and maintaining infrastructure. Even to this day much Russia's infrastructure is in the west or far-east.

Are the underlying factors behind OTL Russia's declining birthrate amongst ethnic European Russians still gonna be a thing here? Sure, they're gonna have alot of soldiers and alot of people on sheer size alone, but how difficult will it be ITTL to increase the number of major population centers out to spread European Russian culture, religion, and institutions in the interior compared to OTL? I do agree that in the end, the desire of the Russian leadership to surpass Rhomania may not bear any fruit simply because the easier roads Rhomania has towards maintaining demographic health, energy self-sufficiency, overland international trade, warm-water shipping, and other advantages I cannot think of mean that any Roman Empire of comparable heft will simply outlast it ice-laden hat.

Maybe Rhomania, Russia, and Persia can come to an agreement over where they would like the borders to end up in Asia and agree to not step on each other's toes.

You know, this might be a bit more plausible than I originally thought at first glance. I might be talking out of my ass, but wouldn't the willingness of all three parties (plus Georgia, Meso, and possibly an independent or semi-Despotic Khazaria) to settle the borders depend on how important the current incarnation of the Silk Road is for each? Other than (increasingly diminished) overland trade routes and whatever big cities exist in Central Asia, there's not much to really risk a global war for. For that, you can thank the rising and established powers in Mexico, Japan, India, and Island Asia. The Eurasian commercial networks, I think, have generally shifted southwards in a way that access to the Indian and Pacific Oceans for those three empires specifically is what matters. Unless the Ottomans place an unreasonable premium on maintaining their control over the porous deserts and steppelands of Central Asia, we may very well see a quick drawing of borders after minor skirmishes that ends with Russia becoming responsible for everything north of the Jaxartes, the Ottomans getting the good bits south of it.
 
You know, this might be a bit more plausible than I originally thought at first glance. I might be talking out of my ass, but wouldn't the willingness of all three parties (plus Georgia, Meso, and possibly an independent or semi-Despotic Khazaria) to settle the borders depend on how important the current incarnation of the Silk Road is for each? Other than (increasingly diminished) overland trade routes and whatever big cities exist in Central Asia, there's not much to really risk a global war for. For that, you can thank the rising and established powers in Mexico, Japan, India, and Island Asia. The Eurasian commercial networks, I think, have generally shifted southwards in a way that access to the Indian and Pacific Oceans for those three empires specifically is what matters. Unless the Ottomans place an unreasonable premium on maintaining their control over the porous deserts and steppelands of Central Asia, we may very well see a quick drawing of borders after minor skirmishes that ends with Russia becoming responsible for everything north of the Jaxartes, the Ottomans getting the good bits south of it.
My first thought at the suggestion was that it was unrealistic. I've already questioned the idea of the Orthodox powers remaining friendly and not going to war with each other so the idea of these additional powers also agreeing to lines in the sand and keeping to it just felt implausible. But then I stepped back to think about why. And it's completely based on the fact that stable borders like that existing for such long time periods is vanishingly rare in OTL. But it happens all the time in ATLs because the omniscient author knows that it's in both nations' best interests. And despite that not really happening in OTL, I guess that doesn't mean it should be discounted as a possibility.
 
You know, this might be a bit more plausible than I originally thought at first glance. I might be talking out of my ass, but wouldn't the willingness of all three parties (plus Georgia, Meso, and possibly an independent or semi-Despotic Khazaria) to settle the borders depend on how important the current incarnation of the Silk Road is for each? Other than (increasingly diminished) overland trade routes and whatever big cities exist in Central Asia, there's not much to really risk a global war for. For that, you can thank the rising and established powers in Mexico, Japan, India, and Island Asia. The Eurasian commercial networks, I think, have generally shifted southwards in a way that access to the Indian and Pacific Oceans for those three empires specifically is what matters. Unless the Ottomans place an unreasonable premium on maintaining their control over the porous deserts and steppelands of Central Asia, we may very well see a quick drawing of borders after minor skirmishes that ends with Russia becoming responsible for everything north of the Jaxartes, the Ottomans getting the good bits south of it.
I think it would entirely depend on if there are good relations when the railroads start becoming a thing - all three of them would benefit MASSIVELY from strong rail infrastructure in Central Asia and beyond. That's a good while away from where we are now (like, at least a century before the first locomotive) but again, a friendly Russia with rail links to southern ports has a stronger economic basis, and if on reliable terms with the Romans can rest comfortable that they've de facto got southern ports.

In fact, the Belt-and-Road projects China is funding in the region today could even happen earlier in this timeline, since there are substantial powers that *could* be at peace. Imagine, rather than the Orient Express that takes you to Istanbul, instead you have the Silken Railway, connecting Constantinople to Alexandria, Isfahan, Kashgar, Moscow and Beijing!
 
I can easily see a pseudo B&R project being a major focal point between the three powers and being a potential binding agreement for them to not declare war on each other
 
"But the sons of Leonidas shall sally forth,
With the sons of Xerxes at their side,
And the children of Solomon with them.
And even Antichrist shall quake at their might.

But even such great power shall not be enough,
Till Russia shall march forth,
With a host no man can number.
And not even Antichrist shall be able to stand.

So stay your hand, children of the west.
For when the bill comes due,
It shall be the peoples of the east that shall save you."

I'm not entirely sure who the children of Solomon is supposed to be (Mesopotamia, Ethiopia or Egypt?), but the gathering of the Rus shouldn't be a surprise if you trust in Nostradmus.

So Antichrist is Henri? Wouldn't really align with Philip, considering the former verse seems to refer to Oddyseus' march on the Bengal. The problem is Nostradamus is supposedely a member of the Triune court, and referring to a future lord as Antichrist demands some serious obfusciation. I guess is Nostradamus is secretely supporting Lotharingia, in which case Henri is truely the Antichrist. Ofcourse that is if you believe old Nostra' could see into the future...
 
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If the Russians really do put forth a massive host as the prophecy proclaims the hard times in the HRE are about to get even harder. There is no chance that Russia has the logistics to support a massive foreign campaign so they will live off the land and a massive host living off the already devastated land during years of bad harvests is going to leave a lot of people hungry.
 
Is that a good thing for Russia or a bad thing? Taking that many mouths away from needing to be fed in Russia itself, or draws too many peasants away from the land who are farming. I think myself there should be plenty of second and third sons not really needed on the land during bad harvests. What do you think.
 
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