An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

This is when I tell you that the out-of-continuum reason for the story being focused on Rhomania is that six-year-old me saw the phrase ‘Byzantine Empire’ in a Calvin & Hobbes comic and thought that was the coolest name ever (had no clue what it was, and when my mom looked it up in the encyclopedia for me the explanation went completely over my head), and it’s been my favorite historical civilization ever since.
Completely understand you :p So, what's your standing of the coolness of the name "Seleucid Empire"? 🤔
Also here it's Byzantium playing the role of whitewashed empire I see on this thread people supporting the idea of Romania committing genocide,always taking Romania side even with Romania treating Latin as inferior people, making fun of other nations. But still disliking Triune for their action.
Yeah, human nature takes is natural (and a bit hilarious form) here.

Triunes lambasted for arrogance/whitewashing British history, while at the same time some people are arguing for their team (Romans) to genocide their way to a hellenised empire.

I think people will most of the time root for their guys/team and forgive their mistakes. Since this is english language forum, it's natural there will be more anglophiles.

P.S.

Although I can't say I've seen a lot of british wanks and whitewashing on pre-1900 and post-1900 forums? There were of course some really over the top posters (67th Tigers for Britain and Burnished rows of steel guy for US), but most of the anglo guys here seem pretty normal?
 
Personally, when I read the story at the beginning, I only see an umpteenth Byzantium story with France and Venetia being screwed, and I kinda feel the English victory a little unrealistic, but it didn't bother me due to the narrative, and I must admit I kinda started to appreciate the triune when they started to form as a nation.

For me it was not an umpteenth story about the British rules the waves, because it becomes its own nation with its own code, I share the same opinion about people's opinion on British history and AH. Here I feel it different, Triune is a nation build on sparkle, different people working together, a union of class, etc. Also, I started to play Warhammer II and I love Bretonnia (a mix between France and English culture with a little Celtic). Triune was started to be a satire of Britannia rules the waves but it becomes a very interesting nation.

I think that I start to like them because they are kinda the underdog, many people want to see them fall, but they are still here, their foundations are shackle but they are still here, they have many enemies but they are still here. Henri II and his predecessor's actions are glorious to read and see, same for their achievement Triune did commit many atrocities, and yeah but I think that here it's the opposite of OTL, everyone talks about why Triune should disappear what bad action did they commit.

But the good? why good action did they bring, what about Triune people happy to be part of this nation.

They also have a strong navy a strong army loyal to their kings, a powerful network, etc they have many reasons to fail but many to survive.


I love the idea of karma bringing justice, but the idea of Triune surviving despite everything declaring they will fall kinda funny, still with many failures due to their bad actions. And I think that the idea I love them is that they did make bad actions but at least people are aware of this and we criticize them for this. We could have them be seen as the villain by other due to their action and reverse the trope about whitewashed Britannia and have a blackwashed Triunes. Becoming the kind of nation that we love to hate, like a good antagonist for a good story (maybe not the main one but still one). You could spotlight their crime and make people revolted of them, make them have bad days, but I hope to see them survive as a nation because I think that their concept is cool and see a mix between France and England with celt could be interesting to see as a modern nation, personally, when I read timeline I never see the concept so I'm really intellectually curious to see how it could develop.

After it's your timeline you do what you want and I will continue to read it if you decide to make them fail, but congrats to make me like an timeline with English winning the war against France :D

Also here it's Byzantium playing the role of whitewashed empire I see on this thread people supporting the idea of Romania committing genocide,always taking Romania side even with Romania treating Latin as inferior people, making fun of other nations. But still disliking Triune for their action.
White-washing Rhomania? Bruh if anything from the past three years of me following this TTl. It is anything but one, many people call out people who demand such a thing.

Though in my personal opinion, I came here to read this great ttl in regards to the survival and prosperity of the Roman empire. On how its survival affects everything that we know off.

Regarding the Triunes, well its not that hard not hate such a nation. Wasn't the savior of the Triunes who was visited by Empress Helena, earmarked his sadness on the state of thinking by his people?

We all know how Rome got gobsmacked for their smug sense of superiority, throughout their goddamn history. People see it as karma and rightfully so. But to those people demanding Rome be even further humbled, in this ttl are actually sometimes irritating.

When I read this ttl it's actually helps me get out of my depression. I love the Andreas era and the fallout after his death (That shit was hard to read though, but necessary and was expected to happen).

Now after the great latin war/war of Roman succession, you would think that finally a little bit of respite and good luck eill finally happen. But it doesn't, its the same feeling you have after Andrea's death, only its much worse.
 
Regarding Ireland, I think the Bernese League opens an interesting option - with Spain and Arles as Atlantic-facing members, having an Independent England on board makes sense given the original purpose of the League. The same logic applies to Ireland, and that would in many ways keep Ireland safe - England and Ireland are surrounded by a number of strong states - EotN included. But with this sort of mutual alliance it bodes well. Not expecting a unified military command, but still - the Bernese League has an option.
 
Imo, I would love for the triunes to stay. Because of a few reasons.

1. Its one of the non cliche countries for both Triunes and Arles. I rarely see England keeping France even they do win the 100 years war. The only time i see it is probably in divergence of darkness.

2 They are a powerhouse even stronger than historical france, a clear hegemon which can only be contested by a united Germany. Which is interesting as we see everyone around them form a coalition (see the Arles spain pact) like how the holy league form against the Ottoman. This also adds to the fact that they are also an "other" due to their non Catholic religion. Its makes the dynamic in Europe interesting.

3 imo, alot of the "i want triunes to fall" is mostly due to the fact that some people here is pretty much the equivalent of a rabid roman nationalist whose main interest would be to see rome dominate. Hence,big rival falling = good.(see also the push backs that happened recently when rome failed). And while I also mostly support Rhomania in this TL, it starts to get annoying.

4 lastly,to appeal to the Roman nationalist crowd, I would say that Triunes is actually a natural Roman ally, especially since they just lost Bengal. They are both non Catholic powers that both has been demonized and mistrusted (with good reasons ofc). Ofcourse both side being generally speaking very arrogant and just can't see eye to eye on most things. But their conflict doesn't make sense. Rhomania is not going to march into the north European plains any time soon, nor do the triunes can send a significant forces to the med without local allies. The moment they realised this, they are in position to end the HRE and split europe to a North European and med sphere. Of course i don't think that will happen.
 
I would say that Triunes is actually a natural Roman ally, especially since they just lost Bengal. They are both non Catholic powers that both has been demonized and mistrusted (with good reasons ofc). Ofcourse both side being generally speaking very arrogant and just can't see eye to eye on most things. But their conflict doesn't make sense. Rhomania is not going to march into the north European plains any time soon, nor do the triunes can send a significant forces to the med without local allies. The moment they realised this, they are in position to end the HRE and split europe to a North European and med sphere. Of course i don't think that will happen.
This is one of the things I've noted a few times - that if it wasn't for the history, raw geopolitics would suggest that they're great allies - but we have to remember that the Triunes, unprovoked (and I forget why) attacked the Romans - not to mention the rest of their history.

But also, whilst the Triunes are in a good place in isolation to be Roman allies, it would have completely upended Roman priorities. Almost every Roman diplomatic agreement has been to bring some sort of peace and dominance over the Mediterranean, and the Triunes and Arles have long been at odds. Allying with the Triunes throws Arles under the bus - and whilst the German campaign was a disaster enough, throwing Arles under the bus is a dubious gain - because they exchange a mostly friendly Mediterranean for.... what? The Triunes would happily take S.France, but dividing it with the Romans? I'm doubtful. Further the Triunes wouldn't have nearly the consideration that Arles has given the Romans historically.

So whilst they don't have obvious clashing interests, it still comes down to the Triunes wanting S.France vs the Romans wanting a secure Mediterranean that kills it.
 
Arles is also a much better ally as far as the Romans are concerned. Much less likely to drag them into other conflicts, smaller, and a little easier to bend their ears to Roman priorities. They can't push them around, but it is much easier to exert influence in a country that is not playing in the same league as far as military and economic power is concerned.
 
Thanks for the comments on the Triunes. I do think they’re useful as a way of providing an outsider look on “not-British Empire”. Empires often look good to those on the inside, to the elites who benefit from them, but not to those on the outside. And that applies to all empires. What is good for the Romans is often not good for non-Romans (and even then, the good is almost certainly restricted to a minority of Romans).

The key, and I’m speaking to myself as well [1], is not to focus on the British Empire of OTL or the Triune Empire of TTL as some sort of unique evil, because it’s not. The issue with ‘British Empire’ isn’t the British part, it’s the Empire part. The problem with whitewashing the British Empire is that no empire should be whitewashed.

The same also applies to the Roman Empire.

[1] A big concern of mine while editing/proofreading the Great Crime update was not using the passive voice when describing Roman actions. The initial draft had some instances (and I would not be surprised if I missed more) of me instinctively doing that, because I do have a pro-Roman bias.

Completely understand you :p So, what's your standing of the coolness of the name "Seleucid Empire"? 🤔

Yeah, human nature takes is natural (and a bit hilarious form) here.

Triunes lambasted for arrogance/whitewashing British history, while at the same time some people are arguing for their team (Romans) to genocide their way to a hellenised empire.

I think people will most of the time root for their guys/team and forgive their mistakes. Since this is english language forum, it's natural there will be more anglophiles.

P.S.

Although I can't say I've seen a lot of british wanks and whitewashing on pre-1900 and post-1900 forums? There were of course some really over the top posters (67th Tigers for Britain and Burnished rows of steel guy for US), but most of the anglo guys here seem pretty normal?

Well, if you remove the Latinization and spell it as the Seleukid Empire, I think it’s a pretty cool name. Ah, this brings back fond memories of playing them in Rome: Total War and getting attacked by 5 different countries within the first 15 turns…

I think it’s also a matter of the winners writing the history books, and writing them to suit their own ends. English speakers, the UK and US, won and so they get to write the books, and of course write themselves as the good guys.

Regarding the PS, I have a few thoughts. I do think AH.com has gotten a lot better in this regard than it was the first few years I was here. It still has issues, but it’s improved. Also it was always a minority, but that minority did have some pretty horrible takes and could be rather unpleasant. So it’s a case of ‘the group is big, but all it takes is one asshole’.

There’s another reason why it looms large in my mind. I don’t like British or American exceptionalism, but I’ve always felt that AH.com has had a bigger issue with the former than the latter. This is the opposite of outside AH.com, where American exceptionalism is a much bigger issue. The reason is that while I’ve seen both types of exceptionalism in this forum, my personal experience is that the American exceptionalism almost always gets called out for what it is. In contrast it seems to me that British exceptionalism is usually given much more of a pass.

That’s my personal opinion/perspective anyway. It’s not like I’ve done a rigorous analytical study of the topic, so take with some salt.

Wondering the status of the Welsh, Cornish and Manx within the Triune hierarchy and how warm their relationship is with the English

Can’t answer that because I haven’t given the topic any thought.
 
The Lands of Germany, 1648 part 1
The Lands of Germany, 1648, part 1:

At the beginning of 1648, Emperor Philip Sigismund demanded that the Lady Elizabeth von Wittelsbach hand over all her landholdings to him. An unspecified amount would be returned to her, but only after suitable confiscations had been made to be used as compensation for all the princes of the Empire who’d lost land west of the Rhine. If she failed to do so, she would be placed under the Imperial Ban and rendered an outlaw throughout the Holy Roman Empire.

The legal justification for such demand and punishment was extremely questionable, but legality meant little. Some princes saw an opportunity for a snack from carving off a bit of the Wittelsbach patrimony. Those princes not motivated by greed were motivated by fear; Philip Sigismund, backed (or controlled) by Henri II, was too powerful to challenge. And so they keep silent.

Elizabeth refuses the demand, but the situation is hopeless. Imperial and Triune forces invade Wurttemberg from the north and west simultaneously, then sweep onwards toward and then through Bavaria. There is little active fighting, even compared to the combat in Saxony. The force disparity is such that the defenders see little reason to risk their lives in a pointless doomed defense. Still, having large armies moving through the countryside, even if not engaged in active combat, leaves a lot of mayhem and disease in their wake.

Elizabeth, along with her young son Karl Manfred and those few trusted retainers still willing to remain loyal, are forced to flee from Munich in early June. Going south is not an option. The hospitality of King Niccolo Farnese is not to be trusted; information from Elizabeth’s agents warn that he’d likely ransom her to Henri II for a nice sum if he got her in his custody. Fleeing to Rhomania is definitely not an option; doing so would justify the sequestering of all her lands in the eyes of the Germans, and she will need German support if she is to have any hope of ever regaining the Wittelsbach patrimony.

The party makes their way north, although due to the need for secrecy their itinerary is mostly unknown to historians. It seems that they went through Bohemia, Saxony, and Brandenburg, with the connivance of their Hunyadi, Habsburg, and Hohenzollern rulers respectively. None of them were willing to openly defy Philip Sigismund and Henri by sheltering her openly and permanently, but they were willing to look the other way if she was passing through the land.

Braver, or more foolish, is the Duke of Pomerania, Wartislaw X, who compensates somewhat for his limited resources with substantial energy. He’d done much to blunt Scandinavian efforts to expand beyond Schleswig-Holstein in the mid-1630s even before Ottokar’s army had arrived to reinforce him. But in doing so he had humiliated King Peter II, who is not inclined to overlook the insult even after this delay.

Elizabeth’s presence in the Pomeranian capital of Stettin is a horribly kept secret, soon known to the world, and Elizabeth and Wartislaw quickly drop even the pretense. The Duke announces that he is protecting the Lady Elizabeth who has been unjustifiably stripped of her lands in violation of the constitution of the Holy Roman Empire. He calls upon all princes who respect the constitution and German liberties to join him.

The response is that of deafening silence. No one else is willing to stand openly against the two ‘Emperors of the West’, as one pamphlet styles Philip Sigismund and Henri II. In the defense of Wartislaw, he didn’t expect much of a response at first. Had princes been willing, the substantially more powerful rulers of Bohemia, Saxony, or Brandenburg would’ve stepped forward. However he believes that there will be one of two outcomes, which will work for him in the end.

The first is that Philip Sigismund will march out against him. However he is a land power, utterly lacking in naval strength, a prerequisite for reducing Pomerania and its ports. So he will be stalled, hemorrhaging material strength, prestige, and authority, and in his growing weakness others will be willing to rally against him and join Pomerania.

The other option is that Philip Sigismund will march out against him, but will enlist naval strength to make up his lack. But to do so will require him to turn once again to foreigners, either the Triunes or the Scandinavians or both. So once again the Holy Roman Emperor, the supposed defender of the German states, will be deliberately inviting in foreigners to chastise a prince of the Empire. Philip had used Triune troops against the Ravens, which had been embarrassing, but no prince was going to argue too much considering the target and the success. It would be far more scandalous to do the same when the target was a prince of the Empire. German public opinion is extremely unlikely to take fondly to that, and fear will give way to anger, and others will be willing to rally against Philip Sigismund and join Pomerania.

To now go against Wartislaw, there is a flaw in his reasoning. He had assumed that if Philip Sigismund took the second option, which is the more materially threatening to Pomeranian security, it would take time, at least until 1649, before it could be mustered. But even before it would be mustered, it would be clear what the Emperor was doing, so Wartislaw would have several months to stoke up German public opinion before he was seriously attacked.

However Philip Sigismund is able to get moving with an army far earlier than Wartislaw expected. It is a fairly small army, and dependent on several Triune regiments on loan from Henri II which is awkward, but against Pomerania it is strong enough. In addition, squadrons of Scandinavian warships appear off the coast and blockade the port cities as Philip Sigismund prepares his siege lines. The Emperor’s speed is due in no small part to a lack of siege artillery, but the lack is made good by the offloading of cannon from some of the warships.

There is a price for Peter’s aid, and it is a stiff one. The Scandinavian monarch wants Pomerania for himself, to rule as Duke of Pomerania as an Imperial prince, as the Danish kings once ruled Schleswig and Holstein as Imperial dukes before the Wittelsbachs seized the duchies. Philip is aware of the outrage this will cause across the Holy Roman Empire but calculates this will be better than waiting and giving Wartislaw and Elizabeth more time to rally opinion against him.

With cannon hammering the walls of Stettin and the blockade getting stronger with the addition of Triune vessels, the outlook for Pomerania looks grim. Philip’s quick response, even with its foreign components, makes him look strong, so no one else is willing to challenge him. Flight is the only option, save for surrender. The latter is not an option Elizabeth is willing to take, and neither is Wartislaw.

On September 3, a small party that includes Elizabeth, Karl Manfred, Duke Wartislaw, and his heir Bogislaw (who as commander of the Pomeranian contingent is a veteran in the campaign against Rhomania) is able to sneak out of Stettin in small rowboats sticking close to shore, getting past the siege lines. However with all the Scandinavian and Triune warships on the prowl they are unable to get out into the Baltic. As planned, they land, picking up horses at a predetermined site, and ride east toward a planned second rendezvous for transport out of Pomerania.

* * *​

September 4, 1648, somewhere in Pomerania:

The Triune cavalry patrol had been pursuing them for a better part of an hour, with horn calls signaling to others, making it clear that their hunters were not alone. Elizabeth resisted the urge to ask again how close they were. She knew they were close, really close, but so were their pursuers. It would be such a pity to have come so far and fail this near to their objective. Their party was small, with just a few guards and retainers to protect and support her and her son plus the Duke and heir. It would not take many men to overpower them.

Eight men on horseback suddenly burst out in front of them, charging and yelling. She heard Bogislaw swear in Polish as he whipped out a kyzikos and fired while at full gallop. One of the assailants toppled off his mount just before the two groups collided.

One of the attackers grabbed her, his hand gripping her upper left arm. “Surrender, bitch!” he yelled. She jerked her arm towards her, the man yelping in surprise as she yanked him forward. She lowered her head so that his face smashed into her forehead. He shrieked and Elizabeth heard the crunch of a nose flattening, spraying her with blood as some of his teeth bounced off of her. His grip dropped and she shoved him off onto the ground, trampling him deliberately with her horse as she blinked away blood off her eyes. She shook her head; that had worked rather well but her head was not hard enough to make that a good repeat tactic.

Looking around her, she saw three of the riders fleeing with some more men on the ground. Wartislaw, Bogislaw, and Karl Manfred were fine, her young son trembling and perched on a horse in front of Jakob, her captain of her guard, who’d been with her since she’d been a girl in the strange land of Constantinople, all those years ago.

Jakob looked behind them. The land here was mostly clear, with scrubland interspersed with copses of stunted trees, with the smell of the Baltic Sea hanging on the air. More riders were coming up behind them and the fight had slowed them down. Jakob frowned, edged his horse closer to Elizabeth, and then with one hand picked up Karl Manfred and plunked him down in the saddle in front of Elizabeth. “You’re almost there, milady. Ride hard. I’ll buy you the time you need. Hans, Adolf, you’re with me.” He looked at Bogislaw. “You get her through.”

“I will.”

“God go with you, Captain,” Elizabeth said, resisting the tears.

“God go with you, milady.”

They rode.

* * *​

“Contact! Hot pursuit!” the lookout bellowed from the crow’s nest.

“All hands to stations!” the captain shouted. “Hot extraction!” He looked over to see the boats ready to launch, while gun ports drew open and the men loaded cannons. “Be sure to mark your targets,” he said. It wouldn’t do to accidentally shoot their passengers.

“Here they come!” the lookout shouted. “Close pursuit!”

The captain looked to the shoreline. This little cove wasn’t much of an anchorage, with a hill near the shore blocking most of the view inland. He saw a small party of riders crest the hill, charging down towards the shore. And then right behind was a much larger party of horsemen. “Gun-master, when you’re ready,” he said. The man nodded.

A few seconds passed. The larger group was spreading a bit, with fresher mounts pushing forward, but even that would be enough to overwhelm the initial group unless they got help.

“FIRE!”

* * *​

Elizabeth saw the ship as soon as she crested the hill, lying black-hulled in the water, with white stripes of paint along her gun decks. She wasn’t good with ships. It wasn’t a small ship, but it wasn’t anything like those hulking Triune monsters, or even the bigger Lotharingian warships she’d seen on a diplomatic visit. But she recognized the banners flying from the mastheads.

Karl clutched her arms tightly as her foaming horse pounded toward the shore. She could hear the loathsome sounds of French and English behind her. They’d stilled momentarily upon sighting the ship, clearly their rendezvous, but the pursuers were close. They could still overwhelm Elizabeth and her party before they could get off the beach.

Then the ship spoke, cannonballs ripping through the air, the whistle sounding like they were aimed at her head. Now that would be an ironic way to die, she thought. But they whistled past, and the triumphant calls were immediately replaced.

Elizabeth did not much care for the sounds of French or English speech. But the sound of French or English screams, that was sweet.

* * *​

The first cannonade hadn’t killed that many of the Triunes; the ship had fired only a few cannons, concerned about the close quarters shooting. But going up against a ship armed with 25-pounder cannons when one was only armed with a few carbines plus kyzikoi and sabers was unhealthy, so after another two cannonades the Triunes had fled back behind the hill, allowing a quick but safe withdrawal from the beach.

Elizabeth climbed up the ladder from the boat, trying her best to look dignified as she clambered over the railing, which was difficult considering how her clothes were soaked in sweat and she still had a lot of dried blood on her face and in her hair. Once on deck, she immediately looked around, quickly identifying the captain. “Kentarchos,” she said in perfect Constantinople Greek. “We thank you for your good service.”

The Kentarchos, a fairly short and young-looking man, with a triangular chin and long pointy nose, smiled. “Your Imperial Highness,” he replied in Greek, with an accent she recognized as Egyptian. “It is our pleasure to aid an Empress. I am Kentarchos Leo Kalomeros. Welcome aboard the Theseus.”

He glanced behind her. “That’s everyone,” one of Kalomeros’s officers said. Elizabeth looked herself and then confirmed it.

“Good,” Kentarchos Kalomeros said and then looked over at the helmsman, giving a string of nautical orders that completely went over her head. Something about points and jibs…

She looked over at Bogislaw, who nodded that the orders were of the type they should expect. If all went well, if God be willing, soon they would be in Narva.
 
Wow, that was quite dramatic. I didn't expect the initial battle against Elizabeth to go so poorly for her, but it does all make sense. Phillip can't have any friends left within the empire. He is ruling purely through fear of the Triunes. He hasn't been able accomplish anything without foreign aid and has marched a foreign army across the empire twice now. He must appear pretty weak on his own to the princes.

I also have to wonder how much more support Henri is ready to give him. I may have missed it, but I got the impression Phillip has not been paying for the use of Triune forces, so Henri is spending his own money to prop up an emperor to secure his winnings.

And of course I need to ask, when and why did Leo Kalomeros make his way up to the Baltic? This man knows how to be in the right place at the right time. Elizabeth I think was right to fear going to the Romans initially, but I wonder how this will play now that they rescued her from Triune and Empire of all the North forces. Does fleeing to foreigners still count against you when you're fleeing from foreigners?

Side note: what's the demonym for the Empire of all the North? Is it just Scandinavians? Northmen?
 
Oh wow, a former Roman Empress, fleeing the HRE via a Roman ship to Russia? Now that's going to be interesting - I was under the impression that the Romans weren't interested in Latin affairs any more, I wonder if this is the extent of future entanglements. Though Russians hosting a claimant to the HRE throne would be an incredible was for them to explode into terrifying Western Europe
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
Ooh boy, who wants to bet that Leo may be on loan to the Russians. Also, I wonder if the Russians, Prussians, and Polish might be gearing up for a fight.
 
Excellent chapter. You do a fine job conveying action which not getting overly bogged down in.

Hyped to see Leo back. He's certainly made a career for himself and looks like he's still well in his prime.
 

Vince

Monthly Donor
I take it Elizabeth escaping is the second reason why Henri and Philip Sigismund aren't able to consolidate control of the HRE?
 
Well that's a damn cool scene.

And very sensible from a Roman perspective (if it was really authorised and not Leo's executive decision). Keeping a legitimate German pretendent alive might pay off in the future.

P.S.
I recommend trying Arche Seleukiea in Europa Barbarorum (only tried the original for RTW). Great fun and amazingly diverse roster. If only Rome's diplomatic AI wasn't berserkingly mad...
 
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