An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Oda]

It makes sense, the idea of getting a Patriarch has always been a bit of recognition of secular power, Bulgaria originally forced the recognition of theirs, though the position is now defunct and the region under Constantinople. It's an acknowledgement that Rus and Japan are equals in the Orthodox world, technically Georgia and Vlachia are too in a general sense but they don't have the influence and economic/military might to force the issue. Korea might earn one too but that would require it to become the state religion, otherwise a few bishoprics or even a metropolitan under Japan is the best they could aspire to.

Wait korea is orthodox ? Huh that’s interesting Most likely for now is under japan patriarch but maybe in the future if relations with japan sour for some reason they might tried to get one

 

[Cryostorm]

Wait korea is orthodox ? Huh that’s interesting Most likely for now is under japan patriarch but maybe in the future if relations with japan sour for some reason they might tried to get one

No Korea is still Buddhist/Confucian but after the recent war with China that saw Japan and Rhomania assist them, essentially a reverse Imjin War, they gained some good will and Orthodox missionaries have been having success in the country, and Korea can't really afford to persecute them and alienate the only two countries that could help them in a war with their neighbor.

 

[Cryostorm]

That doesn't particularly matter that they were in Japan, they were subordinate to Antioch and have now been removed from Antioch. Yes it is just the parts in Japan but it did weaken Antioch for the same reason the Kievan Patriarchate weakened Constantinople.

Ah, sorry, I thought you meant that another Patriarch wouldn't be needed later on as RITE developed more. I agree that the loss of Japan was a blow to Antioch, though not nearly as much as the loss of all the Rus was to Constantinople.

 

[Evilprodigy]

Ah, sorry, I thought you meant that another Patriarch wouldn't be needed later on as RITE developed more. I agree that the loss of Japan was a blow to Antioch, though not nearly as much as the loss of all the Rus was to Constantinople.

Almost certainly not but hey, consolation prize.

 

[Coyote_Waits]

Georgia Patriarchy predates the POD at 1010 AD

 

[Cryostorm]

Georgia Patriarchy predates the POD at 1010 AD

Oops, your correct. Maybe they would give Vlachia a Patriarch as well, though that would probably be much later if they ever become more than a defacto despotate. I wonder which Patriarch Scythia allowed themselves to be subordinate to, it's one of the few international power plays they can get away with.

 

[Duke of Nova Scotia]

Is there even a metropolitan of any Vlach city? Or are they still all bishops?

 

[Arrix85]

I'm quite intrigued about that line about Armenians being wooed by Iskandar to Persia. I don't really remember their situation in the Empire (a targeted re-read is warranted).

 

[floppy_seal99]

Ooh, neat about the expansion of Patriarchs. I wonder if Constantinople will ever try to get back at Antioch by proposing a Patriarch of Singapore, or some other city in the region.

I’m guessing we’re gonna see a Patriarch not of Singapore, but of somewhere like Pyrgos or New Cnst.

 

[Cryostorm]

I’m guessing we’re gonna see a Patriarch not of Singapore, but of somewhere like Pyrgos or New Cnst.

Really depends on which city becomes the most important focal point of RITE, both Pyrgos and Singapura have good odds of becoming the most important city in the region.

 

[Cryostorm]

I'm quite intrigued about that line about Armenians being wooed by Iskandar to Persia. I don't really remember their situation in the Empire (a targeted re-read is warranted).

Armenians, Kurds, and Turks. Three people uniting two of the oldest empires on Earth.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

A more amusing economic historical note from this period comes from 1643 when the Regent Athena makes a revision to the tax code. Afterwards, all stock exchange buildings, for purpose of evaluating building taxes, are placed in the same category as gambling establishments. The purpose is for social commentary rather than revenue increase, and is still on the books today.​

We've talked about this before in this thread but I'm incredibly curious as to how economic theory and policy develop both within Rhomania and in the rest of the world. Rhomania will be protectionist as all hell to the modern day. I think the analogy the author has used is it will be a combination of China and Sweden: heavy state intervention in economics combined with a cradle-to-grave social welfare system. There's just way too much scar tissue towards the "free trade" of Genoa and especially Venice in the Roman psyche to go towards a classical liberal economic worldview.

My main question is how prevalent is an economic liberalism worldview in a world where Rhomania is thriving? As long as Rhomania is doing relatively well despite being a mercantlistic state, does an Adam Smith analogue even come forth ITTL and if he does, does anyone take him as seriously? Does the rest of the world stay closer to pre-economic liberalist mentalities ITTL or does free trade occur anyway with Rhomania being one of the holdouts who doesn't believe in it?

 

[Βοανηργές]

A more amusing economic historical note from this period comes from 1643 when the Regent Athena makes a revision to the tax code. Afterwards, all stock exchange buildings, for purpose of evaluating building taxes, are placed in the same category as gambling establishments. The purpose is for social commentary rather than revenue increase, and is still on the books today.

Athena trust-busting before it was cool

Eventually it is agreed that the Patriarch of Rome will be elected by a Holy Synod of senior clerics in the Roman Patriarchate

Do they call it the college of cardinals too? Can't wait to see if any dynamic individual takes up the mantle of Bishop of Rome and try to assert hegemony in the West. I wonder whether this will tie into HRE power plays, with factions opposed to the German pope (and by extension the current German Emperor) able to throw their weight behind a new player in the field. While we're on the topic of Popes, has Pope Clement VIII (if he's still in power) taken over a HRE archbishopric as his personal diocese like how Popes from John XXII onwards were also bishop of Avignon IOTL?

So we now have the Septarchy, which is cool.

The nomenclature of Patriarch organization has its origins in Greek, so Heptarchy FTW hahah.

I’m guessing we’re gonna see a Patriarch not of Singapore, but of somewhere like Pyrgos or New Cnst.

 

[Coyote_Waits]

Rome in the East probably won’t rank a Patriarch anytime soon. Politics of that are a bit iffy but besides the Pentarchy, it’s been exclusively used for head of a national church. Rome in the East is politically part of Rome and doesn’t represent one distinct “nation” yet, it could eventually become something like that. Right now it ranks an Archbishop or Metropolitan, probably beneath the Ecumenical Patriarch as I assume SE Asia qualifies as EP territory under the “barbarian lands” proviso.

 

[Tirion]

Do they have any distinction between the patriarchs from Pentarchy and the Patriarchs of independent nation? "You are on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master"

 

[Cryostorm]

Do they have any distinction between the patriarchs from Pentarchy and the Patriarchs of independent nation? "You are on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master"

Internationally and theologically probably not, part of the whole Catholic-Orthodox split was the primacy or equality of Patriarchs, but of course the Pentarchy would be the only ones that matter for internal religious-political questions unique to Rhomania.

That being said Constantinople will have more influence than most day-to-day just because of proximity to the capital.

 

[Daylight Savings]

Theoretically the patriarch of Alexandria is responsible for Carthage right? What's the Orthodox population looking like there these days? I believe it's still a rather small exclave.

Related thought, I wonder if we might see the patriarch of Alexandria funding or pushing for any kind of colonization/proselytization in Africa to expand his influence. I could definitely see the Romans being able to support a colony on something like Zanzibar or Madagascar. I know we've had some conversations about the topic of African colonization, but it's been a very long time and I can't remember where people landed.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Theoretically the patriarch of Alexandria is responsible for Carthage right? What's the Orthodox population looking like there these days? I believe it's still a rather small exclave.

Related thought, I wonder if we might see the patriarch of Alexandria funding or pushing for any kind of colonization/proselytization in Africa to expand his influence. I could definitely see the Romans being able to support a colony on something like Zanzibar or Madagascar. I know we've had some conversations about the topic of African colonization, but it's been a very long time and I can't remember where people landed.

It would be interesting to see if the Romans controlled Zanzibar - no idea who does at the moment, but I doubt it's uncontrolled. Its a great place for Roman protectorates, or Romano-Ethiopian protectorates in reality (given Ethiopian proximity).

Plus it might allow the Romans to benefit (slightly) from the Cape trade route that undermines the Red Sea trade (or a good base to attack it from during wartime).

Tbh, I'd love to see a native Swahili state dominating East Africa and aligned with the Romans. Not something I've seen in a lot of timelines, but it could be really interesting. It would be interesting to look at that region, since even historically it was involved in trade with China as a resource exporter, and whilst we've had a lot of focus on East Asia, and its place in the trade, East Africa would be a new bit for the story. It also could be interesting with its ties to India, as the big V might have something to say about any Europeans there. Sadly it might also be a new target for the Triunes, since they lost the Bengal.

 

[Evilprodigy]

It would be interesting to see if the Romans controlled Zanzibar - no idea who does at the moment, but I doubt it's uncontrolled. Its a great place for Roman protectorates, or Romano-Ethiopian protectorates in reality (given Ethiopian proximity).

IOTL it was taken by the Portuguese around 1500 and stayed that way until Oman took it around 1700.

ITTL it looks like the Swahili Coast got the Europeans booted out earlier, as it's mostly Omani and Ethiopian.

The Swahili coast is comprised of several small city-states, most of which are vassals to either Ethiopia or Oman, although some of the larger city-states have a sort of ‘pocket hegemony’ over smaller cities in their vicinity while still being a vassal to either Ethiopia or Oman. The chief city-states are Mogadishu, Mombasa, Pemba, Zanzibar, and Kilwa, with the first three answering to Oman and the later pair to Ethiopia.

 

[Cryostorm]

IOTL it was taken by the Portuguese around 1500 and stayed that way until Oman took it around 1700.

ITTL it looks like the Swahili Coast got the Europeans booted out earlier, as it's mostly Omani and Ethiopian.

It will be interesting to see if the Swahili coast, and Eastern Africa, becomes dominated by a mix of Coptic Christianity and Ibadi Islam.