An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Vince

Monthly Donor
I think it's a legitimate concern. The father you barely know being hailed far and wide as a great conqueror who died too soon is a lot to live with. You can bet that every time there is a problem there will be someone whispering, "If only Odysseus was here". Now, we know that Ody might very well have failed in peacetime and not met the crises that are coming, but not everyone will have that perspective and depending on who says things, how they make their way to Herakleios, and how he's been prepared for it, that kind of speculation is enough to drive a good portion of people to some bad decision making.

I wasn't even referring to ruling. Your Dad abandoned you when you were 7. Your Mother abandoned you to be with her other children at 13. If that were a thirteen-year-old me that has little experience or context about the realities of the world around me, I would always be questioning in the back of my mind for a long time if it was my fault. That could mess someone up.
 
I wasn't even referring to ruling. Your Dad abandoned you when you were 7. Your Mother abandoned you to be with her other children at 13. If that were a thirteen-year-old me that has little experience or context about the realities of the world around me, I would always be questioning in the back of my mind for a long time if it was my fault. That could mess someone up.
Wasn't it normal that day and age that the kids only got to know their parents at a later age? With them being mainly raised by nannies & tutors
 
Most monarchs and nobility did have interact with their children especially when they were very young but most of the teaching and learning was left to the mother and assigned tutors, usually famed scholars and philosophers of the time. Or retired generals and soldiers depending upon what kinda attitude you wanted to foster.

Odys kid wouldn't be too badly affected by the death of his father consider that Odys own grandfather died at Dojama when he was Demetrious was young. Also we've got to consider that Rhome by our and even probably their own standards is a very militarised society with constant border tension and massive wars every generation or so. Losing a father and even a mother probably isn't a rare occurrence for any Rhoman even the dynatoi.

Most likely Athena and her husband likely had Odys kids raised up with her own aiming to create a similar relationship between all of them that Ody and Andreas had. Although maybe a little bit less as intense. I wonder what was the greatest push for Ody's departure his love for Andreas or not wanting to end up like his father?
 
It's not so much the absent father that I see as the problem, that's normal enough. The problem is that his father is going to take on mythic proportions and Herakleios will have never gotten to know the man, as opposed to the myth. I'm sure Athena will try to teach him about his father's faults, his hesitations, his doubts and insecurities. But will it stick? Or will he measure himself against an idol? Will he see his father's bold actions as the only way or will he appreciate the subtle moves his grandfather and his aunt used to guide the empire?
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
It's not so much the absent father that I see as the problem, that's normal enough. The problem is that his father is going to take on mythic proportions and Herakleios will have never gotten to know the man, as opposed to the myth. I'm sure Athena will try to teach him about his father's faults, his hesitations, his doubts and insecurities. But will it stick? Or will he measure himself against an idol? Will he see his father's bold actions as the only way or will he appreciate the subtle moves his grandfather and his aunt used to guide the empire?
So sort of like Andreas I and his kids and direct descendants. Really hard to live up to a near mythic legend.
 
So far I've been surprised by the aftermath of the War of Wrath. While I initially expected Odysseus to perish at some point during the war with Ibrahim, that sort of thought kind of lulled at the tail end of the campaign until I was hit with the notion that yes, he did die at the end. Ody truly shined brightly, perhaps moreso than Andreas Niketas (that much is debatable), yet his light was cut short, though of his own volition. I suspected that he would die or even kill himself because at that point, he would have nothing to live for after exerting so much of his time and energy trying to fulfill all of his promises, and I suppose that he drank the goblet for those reasons. It's an incredibly tragic life hidden behind all the veneer, although I doubt the Romans would even notice or care.

The Kingdom of Mesopotamia is an interesting solution for both Rhomania and Persia, as it does bring in a neutral state into the affairs of both countries while having a vested interest in maintaining its sovereignty. Plus, Baghdad is saved and not under threat of dissolution had the territory been divided between Rhomania and Persia, which is nice. Although, I also suspect that this peace is merely temporary as its existence does provide an avenue for some dumb ruler in either Rhomania or Persia to violate the peace and eventually wage war in Mesopotamia once again. We'll see how that conflict pans out, but the possibility of a permanent Roman-Persian peace is within reach.

Makes me wonder if the remaining Arabs who survived the Great Crime will be fleeing to Mesopotamia to escape possible extermination, as the neutral kingdom is the only option for them to escape with no Iskander to give them a hand. Alexandros might be facing a crisis on his hands if that's the case.

As to the great crime I wonder how much of it will actually fall on Odysseus. I know we say the future historians will often overlook it when praising him, but I'm curious how much was the result of policies he actively endorsed or commanded versus the neglect of being away on campaign for the entirety of his reign.
I think most of it was neglect, as he was focused on overthrowing Ibrahim as soon as possible while in Mesopotamia (we should note that the Mesopotamian campaign was depicted to be quite brutal anyways). That makes him complicit in The Great Crime, although not the main architect, in my opinion. It'd probably be enough for his role in the Great Crime to be ignored by the Romans, although not for everyone else.

I have this feeling Herakleios is going to be massively screwed up. Think about this, your father who has been absent from your life since you were a child is a famed conqueror who you're in the shadow of and your mother just abandoned you to be with the sons from her previous relationship.

Hopefully, Athena and Alexandros Drakos are something of a parent figure to this kid.
I don't think Herakleios will be that much of a screw up, since he does have very competent figures within his life like Athena and Alexandros Drakos to guide him. While I agree that the possibility of him comparing himself to his father is a big concern, it really just depends on his personality for how badly he wants to prove himself to be as comparable to Odysseus, perhaps to the point of recklessness. Still, I guess that's a natural occurrence when you have a larger-than-life figure looking over your head.

I believe that Louis, though, he will undoubtedly become a monster. He lives alone with a father that actively detests him and curses his existence. If he's incompetent, then the Triunes will be in a world of hurt as the different kingdoms might pry themselves apart from the Triple Monarchy. If he's more competent than his father, then he might actually be the Antichrist predicted in Nostradamus's prophecy, which is much worse.
As for the Lord of the East,
No one shall know where he sleeps.
But his seed shall journey west,
Where there shall be Antichrist.
 

Vince

Monthly Donor
I believe that Louis, though, he will undoubtedly become a monster. He lives alone with a father that actively detests him and curses his existence. If he's incompetent, then the Triunes will be in a world of hurt as the different kingdoms might pry themselves apart from the Triple Monarchy. If he's more competent than his father, then he might actually be the Antichrist predicted in Nostradamus's prophecy, which is much worse.

I searched through the thread and I can't find any reference to Henri's kids or his relationship with them. Where is this talked about?
 
I searched through the thread and I can't find any reference to Henri's kids or his relationship with them. Where is this talked about?
From The Surest Defense:
On a personal level, the summer of 1637 is a bad time for Henri II. His wife, Anne of Brittany, said to be the one person who he truly loved and the one person who loved him, has had four miscarriages by this point. It is believed that she is incapable of delivering a viable child and some argue for an annulment. But Henri, sentimental in this if nothing else, refuses. He does not wish to part from her. However he still needs an heir and so he and Anne make love again. In the summer she delivers a healthy baby boy, but the delivery is traumatic. Three days later she is dead.

Henri is heartbroken, his grief made all the more cutting by the guilt that he contributed to her death. That joint grief and guilt are why Henri’s relations with his son Louis can, at best, be described as frigid. When Henri looks upon his son and heir, who takes after his mother in looks, save for the eyes which are definitely Henri’s, he does not see his son and heir. He sees the thing that killed his Anne, and the proof that he was responsible.
My statement might be a bit exaggerated but still....not a great atmosphere for a kid to be in.
 
I was really joking about Odysseus dying after the campaign. But honestly, where else was he going to go from there? He had lived his whole life first with Andreas, preparing the empire, then defending it under Demetrios, and finally avenging it. He had a narrow view of his mission, and that's why he was so laser focused. It's a shame, I imagine his art would have grown, and fed the culture more.

I think Athena will take Heraklios under her wing, the empire is going to need a diplomatic and economic beast with the troubles ahead. The saving grace is that the rest of the world is in the same boat. I truly hope she plants the works of Theodoros IV and Demetrios III under his nose from here on out. I know it might sound weak, but with Odysseus' passing while on campaign (yes at the end of one, but still away from the empire), there will be those in the White Palace that would prefer an Emperor that would be loved by the troops, but stop leading them. It's the latter 17thC the Roman tradition of "leading from the front", has been weened off with Demetrios III, Odysseus could just be a cap to that.

The loss of Bengal might not be as bad as it seems, Henry II can easily work this to his advantage by encouraging Spain, to try to pick up the pieces. What better way to weaken another continental rival than convincing them to corral cats.
 
The loss of Bengal might not be as bad as it seems, Henry II can easily work this to his advantage by encouraging Spain, to try to pick up the pieces. What better way to weaken another continental rival than convincing them to corral cats.
Is Spain in a position for that? They just got mauled in the far east. Where would they base an attack out of having lost their Malaysian territory?
 
Is Spain in a position for that? They just got mauled in the far east. Where would they base an attack out of having lost their Malaysian territory?
Spain is definitely not in a position to attack after losing their power base in Island Asia while also working with Rhomania in a future North Africa campaign.

It's a shame, I imagine his art would have grown, and fed the culture more.
He did leave behind a lot of paintings, both from his previous occupation and now from the War of Wrath. Odysseus's dinosaur paintings will leave a far reaching impact on paleontology and Roman culture ITTL, imo.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
Spain is definitely not in a position to attack after losing their power base in Island Asia while also working with Rhomania in a future North Africa campaign.


He did leave behind a lot of paintings, both from his previous occupation and now from the War of Wrath. Odysseus's dinosaur paintings will leave a far reaching impact on paleontology and Roman culture ITTL, imo.
Hell, they lost their best and most knowledgeable admiral in the area after essentially losing most of their holdings in the east as well. Rhomania proper is going to be in for some rough times but the colonies will likely be their saving grace with either money or food. It won't stop the pain but it will likely ameliorate it to a degree, certainly better than the OTL Ottomans went through the same period.
 
Yep, and now what used to be Triune holdings are now "free", and the Romans haven't made a move.

In fact no one has, and the only power that has made a massive move of forces to the far East, in the recent past was the Spanish. I'm not saying it would succeed, or it's the right thing to do. Myself I would make diplomatic moves to friendly up the local minor potentates to get some docking and trading conssesions. But for Henry? It makes perfect sense to try to get one of your opponents to attempt it, and do something that stupid. Really, it would be in Rome's best interest too, really rub that salt, and score brownie points with Vij by quietly supplying, juuuuuust enough, those that are opposing the second Spanish Armada.
 
Hell, they lost their best and most knowledgeable admiral in the area after essentially losing most of their holdings in the east as well. Rhomania proper is going to be in for some rough times but the colonies will likely be their saving grace with either money or food. It won't stop the pain but it will likely ameliorate it to a degree, certainly better than the OTL Ottomans went through the same period.
Yeah, I agree that rice shipments from Pyrgos and the rest of Rhomania in the East would be a huge help in treating the eventual famine once the Little Ice Age peaks. The Romans might not like giving up their monems and pizza but they might be down to eat anything during a severe food shortage, despite Rhomania's best efforts (if they can mill the rice into flour, they possibly could extend their existing wheat flour with that instead of something like sawdust).
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
Yeah, I agree that rice shipments from Pyrgos and the rest of Rhomania in the East would be a huge help in treating the eventual famine once the Little Ice Age peaks. The Romans might not like giving up their monems and pizza but they might be down to eat anything during a severe food shortage, despite Rhomania's best efforts (if they can mill the rice into flour, they possibly could extend their existing wheat flour with that instead of something like sawdust).
Yep, in fact the collapse of a central Bengal state is actually a good thing for Rhomania. With how it is now Rhomania has a lot more leverage in regards to purchasing rice, dye, fabric, and spices from the region as there are now several smaller powers rather than one in the delta and along the two great rivers. Being in control would if course be best in their perspective, but since it would be a bad move overall this is the next best situation geopolitically.
 
Maybe someone remembers better than I do. Does any non-native power still have significant holdings in the east? At this point RITE seems like the only game in town. We've discussed many times that unity, rebuilding the losses from the Spanish Armada, and cohesion with the heartland will be challenges, but between Taprobane, Malaysia, Singapore, the Herakleids, and New Constantinople (sorry for the mix of OTL and TTL names I get lost sometimes) RITE is a giant only rivaled by the largest local powers many of which are friendly or outright allies.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
I think Spain still has a couple holdings here and there but overall yeah, Rhomania in the East largely broke European power in Indonesia/India aside from their own.
 
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