Same way the Mongols did with trampling royalty in a carpet avoided spilling royal blood. Less about the actual death and more about the physical gushing, spilling, of blood. Because maces rarely resulted in deep open wounds not much, if any, blood resulted. Very much letter and not spirit of the law.
I get your point, although I think this should’ve ended with an angry St. Peter at the pearly gates asking “how effing stupid do you think I am?”
It always amazes me how much of a sheer demographic advantage France had over all its competition up to the late nineteenth century. If it wasn't for it's over-powerful vassals and perennial money problems, and the more than occasional anti-French coalitions, it very well could have remade an European Empire.
So is France now more reliable of a income source for the crown? I remember reading that one of the reasons England could go toe to toe with France was that while a good tax season for France would wipe the floor with England's England often had a higher average in yearly tax receipts due to tax evasion and poor administration in France which often resulted in years of underpayment to the military, always a bad thing.
Revolutionary/Napoleonic France pretty well showcases the kind of beast early modern France could be without all the ancien regime issues holding it back. It’s rather telling that the Bourbons, even at their most reactionary, never considered going back to the pre-revolutionary provincial scheme but kept the revolutionary one.
The English Parliament has the annoying habit of insisting that English money be spent on English interests, which is a problem if you want to, say, fund the Army of Lorraine. Plus with the Triune monarch usually south of the Channel, it’s harder to influence Parliament for said Triune monarch than the OTL ruler of England. France is just more reliable and importantly pliable, and even if it is pound-for-pound less financially organized it’s just so much bigger than England that it more than compensates.
And thus begins the path to the War of British secession.
Thus be the seeds planted.
I won't lie, I love the idea of the Triunes collapsing and the Atlantic Isles being part of the Empire of All the North. It fits with an idea of a split Europe.
EoAtN in the North, Roman in the South East, Spainish in the SW, Russian in the East, and (currently) Bohemian in the Centre. Throw in the potential of a collapsed Triunes as a sort of Anti-Emperor, held in place by the HRE and Arles and you've got a Europe with a robust political division, a strong role for a reorganised Germany.
Though the EoAtN would certainly be a peril for Germany, unless they partnered up with each other to contain the Triunes, which would then lead to an interesting situation with Arles partnered with Germany and the EoAtN to stay free of the Triunes too, but also to contain the Romans. Imagine, after all of this, a Roman-Triune alliance that makes sense Geopolitically (if Arles goes Anti-Roman).
If the Triunes collapse it looks more likely we'll get an independent Britain that may or may not include Ireland, rather than an England grafted onto the EAN.
I think you'd more likely see an autonomous Northumbria/Danelaw and either an independent, or vassal in England, a return to the days of Wessex and Mercia vs the Rest. Might be that the Triunes keep that part of England in a peace, but based on the update, it sounds like the former Danelaw might well align with the EAN in exchange for local autonomy. It'll be a huge geopolitical win for EAN if they get it, because there is a LOT of coal in those areas. In fact it would effectively double to triple the potential scale of coal production for the EAN. I'm sort of loving the idea of a Pan-North Sea Steamship Fleet, with Calais, the Shetlands, and Copenhagen acting as effectively the naval guards of a North Sea Mare Northstrum
Yeah, northern England has absolutely no interest in joining the EAN. They’d stop being a neglected imperial periphery and become…a neglected imperial periphery. New boss, same as the old boss. No thanks.
Plus England has a population comparable to the rest of the EAN all by itself. Not exactly vassal material.
Nice, the Kingmaker enters the fray. That should prove a nice distraction to the Triunes.
King’s Harbor is not going to like the Kingmaker.
The only problem I see is that they will have a hell of a time maintaining independence if they get it. If the Triunes maintain a hold in Southern England and Ireland then it just requires one bad ruler for them to be reconquered.
I think y'all missed the part where Scotland is getting tired of EAN and is becoming increasingly Bohamist. I'm seeing the most likely road as Northern England + Scotland as an independent power with questions as to Southern England and Ireland.
I did see that but almost makes their position worse, Scotland and Northern England probably have three million inhabitants max against the four to five million of Southern England and the fifteen+ million of France.
If the Triunes keep southern England, an independent North England even if united with Scotland won’t last that long. It’d be far too easy for the Triunes to regroup and march back in. A successful English secession that has a chance of sticking requires putting the Channel between them and the Triunes.
What exactly would this state be called? Britannia? Albion? CAMELOT?
I also suspect that such a state forming will sooner than later result in the Triple Monarchy losing Southern England, either to conquest or succession. They’ll probably retain all of Ireland given France’s likely greater ability to project power ITTL.
A north England + Scotland would be a greater Northumbria.
Whats going on with Andorra? Have they been swollowed up by Arles or Aragon?
They got swallowed up. I dislike dealing with microstates, particularly on maps.
London is mostly loyal to the crown. We'll probably see a Triune civil war but I don't think any breakaway state is survivable.
The only way an English breakaway state works is if it gets all of England. A partial England might last for a little while, depending on how occupied the Triunes are elsewhere, but that’s it.
Right, I've been lurking this thread for five years, maybe more. It has been a lot of fun. Definitely my favourite nerdy hobby. Thanks B444!
Really, Richard Neville? Are we gonna get a kingmaker?
Thank you.
Funny thought, assuming the Yi Dynasty in all its collective non-wisdom tries booting all the Christian Orthodox converts out of Korea, what do the Romans call them? Certainly not “Kauriote” given the associations with Marco Polo, and consequently Venice.
Given the fascination for all things Roman (and D3 having a bit of a fetish for Asian culture and pupu platters) I expect future Imperial documents to pull from Simocatta and refer to future Korean mercs as “Mukriotai” or the like.
Also, there have been, what, three Emperors by the name of Demetrios? I sincerely hope we get to see the 10th of that appellation so we can finally see a Roman Emperor named “DMX”.
I totally fucking forgot about that. Zounds, any war of English Secession is NOT going to end well for any
That'd depend on how syncretic the Koreans turned out. The reason that the Yi Dynasty killed all the Christians was due to the converts sticking to the parts of Christian doctrine that said that Kings come second to God and that Confucian rites and ancestor-worship rituals are all heathen idol worship. That made the lot appear disruptive and SUPER treasonous to the royal court.
We could see the ruling Dynasty (not the Yi, since they came to power after the POD) operate on a more orthopractic, pluralistic model a la the Chinese instead, which is to say that people can worship anything as long as they paid their taxes, stayed loyal to the government, and followed the Law. If the Orthodox missionaries take the Jesuit Ricci's stance that folk religions are all socio-political in nature then their converts will fit into Korea just fine.
Dunno how well that meshes with mainstream Orthodox Christianity. The conversion of Japan indicates that they'll just spawn an Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Korea that's open to Confucian/Buddhist rituals though.
I’m planning on Korea being a lot more open to the outside world, unlike the Hermit Kingdom of OTL. As for Korean Orthodox, if they got numerous enough they’d likely just create an Autocephalous Church. Prior to that though, they may be considered part of the Japanese Orthodox Church. Geographically it makes sense, plus Japanese would be more familiar with and willing to work with the cultural constraints Korean Orthodox would face.
The Triunes will be the victims of their own success. When this war is over, initially a lot of funding will be needed to restore the conquered territories. I guess that projects in England and Ireland (or at least in Northern England) will be underfunded or cancelled already. Add to that the increased weight of the "continental" part of the Triune realm and you have a recipe for rebellion. All it takes is a less than average monarch, or a more than average rebellion leader . However, without support from the outside, I don't think a state comprising of Northern England and Scotland is viable. If however all of England rallies behind the rebellion then things could be different, taking into consideration the fact that England dominates the Triune navy.
Finally, there is the colonies parameter . The colonies are dependent on the navy for growth (more immigrants) and trade. Maybe in the case of a Civil War they would choose to side with those controlling the Navy. And their increased vulnerability would tempt some other powers like the Spanish to take advantage of that.
There will definitely be an explosion in the Triple Monarchy later in this century (1660s?). That’s set in stone, although the details are still up in the air. These are laying the seeds for that explosion, but it’s going to be a complicated affair. Nationalism, religion, trade interests, all will play a part and intertwine.
Who is in the La Plata/Argentina region?
Also, kind of odd that no one has grabbed Florida yet as the Spanish colonized (lightly) very early OTL.
I don't remember the name but B444 mentioned it in the update where the Mexicans were doing their conquest of the Incas.
I feel like florida would be easy pickings for Arles if the Ocean faction is able to gain some more headway
I think that was spurred by searching for the fountain of youth. Florida isn't necessarily a greatly desirable piece of land so without that myth urging exploration it's reasonable to be somewhat abandoned. Even the Spanish only lightly settled there.
Spain is in the La Plata region.
IOTL the first European colony in Florida was a group of French Huguenots. The Spanish massacred them and then set up their own colony there to prevent more Huguenots from showing up. That’s a very specific set of circumstances that can’t take place ITTL.
The mainland at this stage just isn’t very attractive compared to Caribbean real estate.
I wonder if Arles will try to Grab Louisiana since they don't really have any major rivals in the Caribbean. It would be interesting to see Mexico enact a pseudo monroe doctrine and fight back against encroaching european settlement although I'm not sure they would be able to project themselves far enough to do anything major
There isn’t any interest in Louisiana yet. Controlling the mouth of the Mississippi isn’t worth anything until trade goods start flowing down it, and that’s not the case here.
Mexico would take action against a European colony that was literally right on their doorstep, but they don’t have the ability to project serious power across Terranova. The Mexican Empire is huge but rugged and sparsely populated, with many recalcitrant and barely integrated native groups.
Looking into the map
@Frame made (btw thank you very much for it) made me wonder how will Americas look in the 19th and 20th centuries with decolonisation and other things.
I could see the Triunes colony becoming more divided based on language with English north and French south, if I'm not mistaken. Mexico, as it looks, is destined to become uber long Chile, from California to OTL Chile. OTL Oregon, British Columbia and Alaska couldbe divided between Russia and Japan.
But it makes me wonder why Lotharingians didn't start any mainland colonies yet?
And who is that in the northern Amazon region? It doesn't look as any European colony, at least by looking into colour.
Lotharingia has New Ghent (OTL New Amsterdam) and some Caribbean colonies. But mainland colonies at this stage aren’t very attractive compared to Caribbean ones. The sugar islands are what brings in the money.
That would be the former Andalusi colony, which is now Spanish since the fall of Al-Andalus, although it gets special privileges that other Spanish colonies don’t. For example, Muslims can immigrate there, but not to other Spanish colonies.
Will all overseas possessions of Lotharingia be administered by England following the war?
It depends. The mainland colonies are proprietary, administrated by a corporation or an individual with a land grant. The trading factories in the east are commercial enterprises. The Viceroy of Sutanuti reports to Henri II in his capacity as King of France. The non-proprietary colonies have a royal governor, with that governor reporting either to King Henri of England or King Henri of France depending on where the initial impetus for colonization originated. So if an English expedition or English finances are responsible for taking Holding X, they’d get it, but they aren’t going to be granted it automatically.
I don't see the Central American and South American (to use the OTL terms) portions of the Mexican Empire remaining unified longterm. Culture, language, geography etc. Maybe the dynasty could spin off a cadet branch or two in the Andes territories.
They’re not going to stay unified long-term. I’m not sure how the breakup will happen, whether a violent revolution or some cadet branch taking over with a sort of Mexican Komnenoi family pact springing up afterwards.
Just thought about this, but did the armada stop by in Africa to teach the corsairs a lesson first? Would be beneficial for them to grab a few supply stations otw too.
Is there any diffusion of English culture (minimal perhaps) in the opposite direction?
Do those regions have their own national Bohmanist churches? If not, are they under the heavy influence of Triune clergy?
Do any of the two Irish factions like the northern English and Scottish more compared to the French?
Seems like fertile ground for alt-Reformation 2.0
Or maybe Northern England will be the Northern Ireland/Balkans of OTL, massive outburst during TTL's version of The Troubles and a variety of perennial problems thereafter.
They may have a shot if they time their rebellion right. Either when the Germans/Lotharingians rebel too or a foreign power offers to intervene on behalf of them.
Maybe the Spanish too. Their colonization has been very lackluster compared to OTL for some reason.
For that, the Japanese need to begin their exploration efforts soon. I wonder if Hokkaido and Sakhalin have been colonized.
Alt-civil war between a different north and south? Wonder if the institution of slavery is going to have any part in this.
They need really good leaders to pull off a Triune. Definitely a new capital to compromise between the two halves. Depends how much Avignon has succeeded in their missionary activities too.
Armada is heading to eastern waters. Most of the Spanish fleet is staying in home waters anyway because of logistics; they can deal with the corsairs.
English culture isn’t making any headway in France. It just doesn’t have the numbers or prestige.
Lotharingia and Scotland don’t have national Bohmanist churches since they aren’t officially approved faiths in those countries. As a result they are very much under the influence of Triune clergy that are responsible for the initial diffusion, with the Lotharingians taking after the French Bohmanists and the Scottish the English Bohmanists.
The Anglo-Irish lean more towards the English. The Gaelic Irish more towards the French.
Hokkaido and Sakhalin haven’t been colonized yet.