An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Do the Romans consider the Ottomans the same as Arabs?
No. The Minorities and the Empire posts make it abundantly clear how Romans treat the Ottomans (Turks/Persians) compared to the Arabs.
While in this system, all Arabs are Sunnis, not all Sunnis are Arabs. Arabs, in Roman eyes, have a connotation of being religious fanatics and country bumpkins. Considering the many achievements of Arabs throughout history, this is not a fair reputation and many Romans will distinguish between the ‘sophisticated Arabs of the Abbasids’ (which many consider to have been beneficially influenced by Roman and Sassanid civilization) and their ‘fallen descendants’. That isn’t much of an improvement, but Roman prejudice is under no obligation to be more rational or reasonable than the prejudices of other peoples.

The Persians are a different matter. The history between Rhomania and Persia is a long and bloody one, but going back to the days of the Parthians the rivalry, however fierce, was viewed as that of equals. No one would ever think to call the Persians barbarians.
So while the Persians of the 1600s are unquestionably Sunni, in Roman eyes they are sophisticated and intellectual. Iskandar the Great was a terrible foe, but no Roman would call him a brute. When Kaisar Andreas was summoned to the Shah on the field of Nineveh, the dialogue between the Kaisar and Prince Osman was consciously, on both sides, that of Alexander and Porus.

A side effect of that is while all good Romans perceive Islam as a false faith, when Persians speak of Islam Romans give their faith more respect. Extremely cynical when it comes to holy warriors, many Romans suspect Arab Sunni Islam as a pious cloak for simple greed, invoking God as an excuse to rape and enslave their neighbors and loot their possessions. When Latin Catholics speak, save for the exception of Franciscan friars, Romans feel the same way.

While Arab and Persian are used mainly as stereotypes, the Roman use of the word ‘Turk’ is much more nuanced.
At this point there is much Turkish blood in the Roman body; Demetrios Megas, the founder of the Second Komnenid dynasty, was half-Turkish, and he is far from the only example. Yet Turkish raiders have also inflicted incalculable damage to the Empire over centuries, typically while espousing the ghazi ethos while doing so. It cannot be said that there is no prejudice when the term is used, but context is usually taken in consideration when used.
Since the Turks and the Persians are similarly urbanized and cultured, both in the Ottoman Empire and in the Roman Empire, they are treated a lot better than the Arab bedouins in the eyes of the Romans through civilization-ism.
 
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There would be some, that’s true. But a lot of Anatolia really isn’t good farmland and/or much better suited for pastoralism, so I don’t think the difference would be that big. Plus we need to factor in different and likely more deforestation patterns; those Roman battle-line ships eat up a lot more trees than Ottoman war galleys.

Also I definitely lack the knowledge and skill set to calculate how these butterflies would really diverge from OTL, so any changes I make would be complete fabrication on my part. So it’s much easier, and I think more realistic, to take the OTL examples and assume that TTL is, if not identical, at least similar enough that the broad patterns are applicable to both.

Integration in the Roman Mediterranean: There are no plans to try and push this. A future federal union of the various Mediterranean territories on a ‘US of Rhomania’ plan would mark a substantial centralization of the current setup. Sicily and Carthage are really de-facto independent countries in military alliance with Rhomania; their only constraints are that foreign policy with a few polities have to be done via Constantinople, but those polities can be numbered on thumbs.

Egypt has a tighter relationship with Rhomania with many more restrictions on it, but that was forced on the Egyptians by the calamity of the Great Uprising. While it worked on Egypt, that whole bit was certainly noticed by Messina, which means the Sicilians will be especially wary of any attempts by Constantinople to ‘renegotiate’ the relationship.

If Rhomania tried to push centralization, it would just drive the others away. Sure Rhomania might be able to keep them in place by force, but that just turns Sicily and Egypt into TTL Irelands, which I do not consider an improvement. In 1848 the Hungarians tried to implement a policy of Magyarization on the minorities in the Kingdom; the minorities’ response was that they preferred to shoot Magyars than become ones.

A Black Emperor and Latins: Interestingly enough, there is somewhat of an OTL example. Manuel I was very dark-skinned (seriously, look at his portrait). During the siege of Corfu the Venetians and Byzantines quarreled and the Venetians seized the Byzantine flagship. They took a black slave and staged a mock coronation of him, which was certainly an insulting reference to Manuel’s complexion. (While I have no documentary evidence of it, I strongly suspect Manuel resented the insult and that may have played a role in his anti-Venetian actions toward the end of his reign.)

As for the Latins in the TTL present, for those already prejudiced against the Romans they would take it as just more proof of their ‘degeneracy from the noble heights of their ancient ancestors’. For those less prejudiced, it would just be another factor that makes Rhomania weird and exotic, not necessarily bad or inferior, but definitely different.

As for dinosaurs, they won’t be thought of as crazy things made up by the Romans. The Romans do have the bones that sparked the original ideas, and curiosities like that are something they would show off and Latins in Constantinople would be interested to see. Cabinets of curiosities were very popular across Europe at this time. Furthermore sooner or later the Russians are going to start showing up with the frozen intact corpses of mammoths and wooly rhinoceroses. (In a letter Catherine the Great expressed the hope that someday they’d find live mammoths somewhere in Siberia.)

I also agree with the statement that the Romans are more bigoted than the Latins. The Romans spend more time thinking about the Latins than the Latins do about the Romans (it helps that there are more than 5 Latins for every Roman). It’s harder to see because it’s culturally, not ethnically, based and it is directed largely at western Europeans. So it’s definitely bigotry, but it’s of a type that OTL 2021 people are not keyed in to see as readily, while Latin bigotry is much more of the OTL variety and so more obvious.
There is no way for a peaceful integration or happy marriage? Also heard somewhere in this thread that Syria will be its own despotate, is that true?
 
There is no way for a peaceful integration or happy marriage? Also heard somewhere in this thread that Syria will be its own despotate, is that true?
It's very likely for the Anazzah to eventually be turned into a Despotate in the future but for the foreseeable future the current arrangement works quite well for both sides and I bet the local rulers wouldn't be too happy to have their tribal power structure to be rearranged into that of a despotate.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
There is no way for a peaceful integration or happy marriage? Also heard somewhere in this thread that Syria will be its own despotate, is that true?
Maybe the more inland portions but I don't see the coastal Levant going that way, they are about as Greek as Greece itself.
 
Maybe the more inland portions but I don't see the coastal Levant going that way, they are about as Greek as Greece itself.
Would be inclined to agree, though we must also consider how large an area "Syria" constitutes. In the event of it including a sizable amount of northern Mesopotamia, and with it an additional large population of Syriacs, Armenians, Kurds, and Turks (in addition to a fairly large contingent of Sunni Arabs, though I fear for their prospects under Roman rule by Odysseus), it's reasonable to see autonomy being granted to the region given its overwhelmingly heterodox population, even among the Christian element. In that case, even the overwhelming Greek majority on the coasts would be pretty useful to affix to Syria. Consider that the island of Sicily as well as the Calabrian and Apulian peninsulas also have highly Hellenized coasts, but are part of the Sicilian Despotate rather than directly held territories of Rome proper.

Having a sizable contingent of Greeks among the population of Syria, potentially even enough to constitute a plurality of its highly diverse population, can only really be beneficial towards helping maintain order in what is essentially a glorified colonial administration (which strikes me as what the Despotates, barring Sicily, act as within Rome's imperial system).

Even outside of that, I reckon Rome will hold onto at least some important sections of the Levantine coast should it reorganize a chunk of it as part of a Syrian Despotate. At the very least I don't see the state giving up direct control over the theme of Antiocheia, and I would consider it highly unlikely to give up hold over the Palestine region; given policy with Alexandria and Rome itself, I don't see the state abrogating territorial control over the seats of the Pentarchy. Some other economically important Phoenician port cities might also remain under direct Roman suzerainty, with Tyros coming to mind in particular (unless one of the ITTL Roman emperors oversaw its expansion, the causeway connecting the island with the mainland is still probably rather thin).
 
We'll see soon enough. Odysseus and Athena are both half-Ethiopian, and thus dark-skinned. And since Demetrios himself was a half-Mongol, the entire Sideroi family is going to have exotic features.
Huh. I honestly kinda forgot about D3 being half Mongol, I thought there was more western blood added to his ancestry since Timur.
 
There is no way for a peaceful integration or happy marriage? Also heard somewhere in this thread that Syria will be its own despotate, is that true?

Not impossible per se, but I think that any attempt to force such an outcome would make it impossible. And I don’t see Sicily or Egypt willingly becoming provinces X, Y, and Z in a centralized Empire. They might accept being states in a federal union, but not provinces.


As for Syria, I’m thinking at some point it may become a Despotate or federal state. OOC, I find the Imperial heartland’s borders to be really ugly and the way to fix is that either re-integrate Egypt, which I don’t consider feasible, or to make Syria ‘light purple’ as opposed to ‘dark purple’. Borders are undetermined but Syria is extremely diverse both religiously and ethnically. There is a substantial Syrian Greek component, but overall it is still a minority of Syrians in general and is concentrated in specific areas. As a general rule of thumb, the further south, the further inland, and the further rural one goes in Syria the less Greeks there are.
 
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Rhomania: 1639-40
The White Palace Harbor, Constantinople, July 10, 1639:

Athena looked at her brother Odysseus, the new Emperor of the Romans, who was overseeing the loading of materials, including his baggage, onto a ship for the transfer over to Asia. He was on his way to oversee training exercises for the western Anatolian tagmata, a common practice for him, although the first to be done while carrying the Imperial title.

The people of Constantinople had found it strange that there’d been no public funeral for Demetrios III, some complaining about the insult. That had only made Athena even more understand her father’s insistence that not even his corpse would go back to the City; he was done with it. Odysseus’ coronation as Emperor, along with Maria of Agra as his Empress, had gone well, with the ceremonies surrounding it marking Odysseus’ longest stay in Constantinople for years. But now that those were completed he was off again.

“Did you say goodbye to Mom?” she asked.

Odysseus turned and looked at her. “I did, just before now.”

“Good. She does like seeing you.”

“She’s free to visit me in the country.”

“So I assume you’re not going to back here anytime soon.”

“Nope. You have all the paperwork you need?” Odysseus had proclaimed her as Regent while he was out of the capital, with full authority to perform any acts or deeds she thought necessary. Athena nodded. “Good.”

He stepped forward and the two embraced, breaking the hug after a moment. “Don’t spend too much time here,” he said.

“I won’t.” The White Palace was situated where it caught the sea breezes which helped keep the air fresh, but they’d been unusually weak the last few days, meaning that the fetid stench of Constantinople in the summer was getting noticeable. The Sweet Waters had been developed originally as a retreat just to get away from the stink. And right now the whiff of human excrement on the air was…personally sensitive.

But there was more to it than just the smell. “This place murdered Father,” she said, voicing the thought they were both thinking, had been thinking, for a long time, but had never voiced aloud before. Now some of that might be blamed on Demetrios, who for all his brilliance wasn’t that good at delegating responsibility, and the accompanying stress, whether out of a sense of duty or from having more faith in his own competence as opposed to others, and so the great pressures of the position and the times had squeezed him down to nothing. On the other hand, it certainly felt like Constantinople had been actively making the pressure worse a lot of the time, and Athena was certainly overwhelmingly biased in favor of her father.

“It didn’t even have the decency to do it quickly. It just ground him up bit by bit, until nothing but a husk was left,” Odysseus added. He looked at her. “Do you need me to stay? I will for you. No one else, but I will for you.”

Athena smiled sadly. “No, that’s not necessary. But thank you.” She felt the same as Odysseus, perhaps quite not so viscerally, but she felt it. This was a place of power, but she’d seen firsthand the terrible price the power could demand. “I know you need to do this.”

“Are you sure need is the right word?”

“Yes. Your plan is the right one, no matter what others say. Maybe it’ll fail, but it should be at least tried. It’s at least different from doing the same-old thing that’s been done for a thousand years and more. And I know you; you need to do this to be true to yourself. Because if you don’t…” She didn’t finish the sentence; they both knew what followed: you’ll end up like father.

“Thank you.” Odysseus looked behind him. The loading of the boat was complete and the men were clearly waiting for him. The siblings embraced again. “Take care of yourself.”

“You too. Peace be with you.”

“Peace be with you.”

* * *

1639-41: The first years of Odysseus’ reign are quiet, fortunately for the Romans. The economy by mid-1639 is done contracting but growth is non-existent. Brigandage, which has always been at least a background hum due to the many remote and rugged landscapes available for shelter across the Empire, ticks up. This has an effect of shifting the economic pain as the brigands come from the cities, towns, and countryside tightly linked with the urban areas. These were the ones who were hit hardest by the crash. However to operate as brigands they move to more remote and rural areas which are less well-patrolled. Not as closely linked to the monetary economy, these areas had not been hurt as badly but now they suffer from brigand depredations. Notably the romantic image of the klepht is not common in the areas where they most often operated.

Hunting down brigands is useful training for the army and Odysseus incorporates that into the training exercises he conducts. Odysseus wants to resume the war with Ibrahim as soon as the truce expires but knows that due to the Empire’s finances, vast great hosts are not available. He is fighting this with Eternal War level resources, meaning one big field army and that’s pretty much it. So he works to make the one field army as effective and dangerous as he can, with lots of drilling and training, shuffling officers and units to get the most capable and veteran leaders, soldiers, and formations.

One example is the outfitting of those units detailed to go east with the captured Triune 15-pounders, magnificent pieces that are as light and maneuverable as the Roman 12-pounders but with greater range, accuracy, and firepower. Everyone familiar with their work agrees that the Triunes make the best cannon.

One cost-saving measure involves the Polish cavalry promised to Roman service in the Treaty of Kiev in 1635 in exchange for a Roman guarantee of Polish borders. In 1635 that had seemed like a reasonable deal from Constantinople’s perspective; in 1640 it sounds like an unnecessary extravagance. The Roman exchequer doesn’t want the expense of paying and provisioning 4000 Polish heavy cavalry (the most expensive, by far, troop type) and neither Athena nor Odysseus really want to have to guarantee Polish borders. So after negotiations with the Polish ambassador it is agreed to nullify those clauses of the treaty: no border guarantees and no Polish cavalry.

Both sides approve of this change. The Roman reasons have already been given but Queen Alexandra is also pleased. She’d never placed that much faith in the Roman guarantee given Constantinople’s distance, hence the defensive alliance with Bohemia and Hungary that she considered far more tangible. She also put out feelers to the Russians. Thus in losing the Roman guarantee, she wasn’t really losing anything.

And in not having to send Polish cavalry, she was gaining a great deal, more than just the horsemen themselves. She and the Poles had swallowed the cession of Galicia in 1635 because they had to, but the bitter meal turned their stomachs. The loss of Casimir’s conquests had been expected and accepted, but Galicia was historic Polish land and inhabited by many Polish-speakers. It was not acceptable that it be ruled by Vlachs.

Polish landlords had hardly treated the Polish and Ruthenian peasantry well but their new Vlach replacements did not share the peasants’ language, culture, or religion, and treated them even worse than the Polish landlords as well. By 1640 peasant flight was still just a trickle but a growing problem as Galician peasants fled for better conditions across the border. Polish-speakers made for Poland where the local landlords were quite happy for more laborers and not interested in meeting angry Vlach demands for extradition.

Ruthenian-speakers usually made their way east into Lithuania or Scythia, both of which were quite happy to accept them. For ideological reasons, the Russians were even more annoyed by Vlach actions than the Poles. The independent-minded Russian peasantry did not care one bit for the image of peasants being run down and dragged back to horrible near-slavery conditions. Several Vlach serf-catchers who found themselves on the wrong side of the border were murdered.

Alexandra’s prestige and authority had suffered because she was the one that signed the cession. Providing troops for the Romans who’d backed the cession was an additional and damaging humiliation and by negotiating that away, Alexandra helped make up the damage in prestige she’d suffered earlier. She really needed that boost to maintain her position as Regent. Attacking Galicia would’ve been a very popular move, but not a feasible one. Henri II was still a threat in the west and Alexandra knew that Poland needed at least one Roman-peer power to back her up, which wasn’t an option now. Prior to the change her refusal to budge on this topic had been viewed by many as weakness, but with it many of the greats of Poland reconsidered their opinion and now recognized the wisdom of her planning.

Another factor boosting her position in 1640 is the improved response to Polish feelers from the Russians. To explain that requires pivoting momentarily to the Triple Monarchy.

Henri II’s victory over the Lotharingians had been a great victory, for the French. The English saw very little for their efforts, with their rumblings of discontent soon making themselves felt in King’s Harbor. To mitigate them, Henri first transfers control of the Viceroyalty of Sutanuti from the Kingdom of France to the Kingdom of England. The sizeable array of plum positions this offers for profit, prestige, and power to English notables goes a long way to smooth over ruffled feathers.

That has nothing to do with Russia or Poland. However the second action is that Henri backs English demands regarding a new trade treaty in the works between the Triple Monarchy and the Russians. Henri had initially pushed this treaty as a way of improving relations with the Russians, but the need to conciliate English public opinion trumps that.

Novgorod, eager to revive itself as a commercial powerhouse, had been willing to concede substantial benefits to Triune merchants in the agreement to ensure a strong exchange of goods. However the Russians had insisted on equal reciprocal rights for their merchants in Triune territory. Due to the minuscule size of the Russian merchant marine it is extremely doubtful that many, if any, Russian merchants would take advantage of such rights, but it is desired simply as a matter of pride, as an assertion of equality.

Equality with the Russians is absolutely unacceptable to the English, who reject such terms as ‘quite impertinent’. [1] Henri reluctantly backs this because he needs to in order to conciliate the English, and with that backing the trade treaty goes through without reciprocal rights for Russian merchants. But the goal of improving Triune-Russian relations is wrecked. In fact it is counter-productive as many Russians are now incensed at the Triune insult and more open to Alexandra’s and Ottokar’s warnings about the Triunes and proposals to ‘curb their unbearable insolence’.

However neither Athena nor Odysseus are interested in the stirrings in the north. They are simply not that important right now. In February 1641, the truce with Ibrahim expires. It is time to march east.

“Sing, Muses, of the wanderings of Odysseus…”

[1] This is taken from OTL. When Elizabethan English were negotiating trade terms with the Muscovy of Ivan IV, they considered Russian desire for reciprocal rights (for reasons of equality and not because it was likely that non-existent Russian merchantmen would be docking in the Thames) to be impertinent.
 
Love this chapter, seeing that both Ody and Athena blame the political pressure of being emperor killed D3 and that Ody would stay for Athena even if it would mean that he would suffer immensely.

a future painting:
"Basileus Odysseus The Magnificent marches to war at the head of his invincible army"
 
[1] This is taken from OTL. When Elizabethan English were negotiating trade terms with the Muscovy of Ivan IV, they considered Russian desire for reciprocal rights (for reasons of equality and not because it was likely that non-existent Russian merchantmen would be docking in the Thames) to be impertinent.
Every time I think I've hit the limit of English/British haughtiness towards everyone else in the world I read another anecdote like this and a new limit is reached. Never ceases to amaze me.

Oh, excellent update BTW. I'm sure I sound like a broken record at this point but as a writer myself I know that feedback, even the same feedback over and over, helps sustain me so I have no problem saying "excellent update" over and over again :)
 
Great update. Hopefully the Sideroi continue to have a running gag of hating Constantinople, first for legitimate reasons like the smell or D3's eternal suffering, but later devolving to "we hate the Queen of Cities just because", preferring to rule from the Sweet Waters or literally anywhere else like Adrianople.

We'll see how the Russians will fare with this insult. While they're not united as a nation or even able to touch England thanks to their paltry navy, they won't forget this insult against their pride. Maybe we'll see the Polish, Germans, Hungarians, and the Russians form a coalition around Henri II when he eats too much of the Rhine?
 
Notably the romantic image of the klepht is not common in the areas where they most often operated.
The romantic image of the klepht has everything to do with it springing out from an area that had a tendency to revolt against the Ottomans every opportunity it got or thought it got between 1463 and 1821. Post 1830 any who did not understand there was a paradigm shift overnight turned from heroic freedom fighters to common criminals. TTL the Greek lands are not occupied by anyone to romanticize anything...
 
Love this chapter, seeing that both Ody and Athena blame the political pressure of being emperor killed D3 and that Ody would stay for Athena even if it would mean that he would suffer immensely.

Great update. Hopefully the Sideroi continue to have a running gag of hating Constantinople, first for legitimate reasons like the smell or D3's eternal suffering, but later devolving to "we hate the Queen of Cities just because", preferring to rule from the Sweet Waters or literally anywhere else like Adrianople.
Whilst I'd agree with the idea they share, and that the Sideroi could hold that opinion, I'm not sure Athena wants to let that situation persist. This could mean a Sideroi palace near the Sweet Waters of Asia, to both make a point and have a place to operate from outside the city, but I think she's smart enough to see the need to reform institutions as well as bring Constantinople in line. I'm not sure what the solution to them both but I can see a much larger bureaucracy emerging, which could in turn change Constantinople from a powerful city to one almost overwhelmed with information about the rest of the Empire both in terms of newspapers in other cities (which would drown out local tabloidism) and in terms of info as part of bureaucrats jobs. There is a cost and benefit to reform though. The benefit is an Empire that doesn't kill its Emperor, the cost is reduced control because of administrative autonomy.

I'm curious to see if the role of the Emperor would be almost the head of a Censor/Internal Affairs role. Almost outside of a cabinet of ministers that do the main work.
 
Whilst I'd agree with the idea they share, and that the Sideroi could hold that opinion, I'm not sure Athena wants to let that situation persist. This could mean a Sideroi palace near the Sweet Waters of Asia, to both make a point and have a place to operate from outside the city, but I think she's smart enough to see the need to reform institutions as well as bring Constantinople in line. I'm not sure what the solution to them both but I can see a much larger bureaucracy emerging, which could in turn change Constantinople from a powerful city to one almost overwhelmed with information about the rest of the Empire both in terms of newspapers in other cities (which would drown out local tabloidism) and in terms of info as part of bureaucrats jobs. There is a cost and benefit to reform though. The benefit is an Empire that doesn't kill its Emperor, the cost is reduced control because of administrative autonomy.
Well I meant that to be in jest, as a literal comedic running gag, with Athena and her kids groaning at the thought of having to deal with the smells and hustle of the Eternal City, preferring to enjoy the Sweet Waters or some other vacation resort. The Industrial Revolution could make this reality even worse, with Constantinople being absolutely horrendous in overall quality, bringing a huge problem that the future Emperor would have to deal with.

I do have to agree that Athena will streamline and reform the bureaucracy of Constantinople to be in line with Imperial standards though, that is inevitable. The corruption of the banks have taught her of this fact and she will do everything that is necessary to whip every part of the Roman economy and court into shape. What she will do to achieve this should be rather interesting though.
 
Great update. Hopefully the Sideroi continue to have a running gag of hating Constantinople, first for legitimate reasons like the smell or D3's eternal suffering, but later devolving to "we hate the Queen of Cities just because", preferring to rule from the Sweet Waters or literally anywhere else like Adrianople.

We'll see how the Russians will fare with this insult. While they're not united as a nation or even able to touch England thanks to their paltry navy, they won't forget this insult against their pride. Maybe we'll see the Polish, Germans, Hungarians, and the Russians form a coalition around Henri II when he eats too much of the Rhine?
Finally fulfilling that last prophecy of Nostradamus?
 
I mean, when it comes to places outside Constantinople to rule from, there is Chalcedon, literally on the other side of the Bosphorus from Constantinople proper. I don't think the Sweet Waters itself, being a massive garden, would be particularly suitable for a palace, so somewhere near Chalcedon would work rather well, being near Constantinople and the Sweet Waters.
Alternatively one could pull a Diocletian and stay at Nicomedia.
But Adrianople doesn't seem likely, for the simple reason that Asia is more of a priority for the Romans than Europe, so the Sideroi would probably base themselves in an Anatolian city.
 
I mean, when it comes to places outside Constantinople to rule from, there is Chalcedon, literally on the other side of the Bosphorus from Constantinople proper. I don't think the Sweet Waters itself, being a massive garden, would be particularly suitable for a palace, so somewhere near Chalcedon would work rather well, being near Constantinople and the Sweet Waters.
Alternatively one could pull a Diocletian and stay at Nicomedia.
But Adrianople doesn't seem likely, for the simple reason that Asia is more of a priority for the Romans than Europe, so the Sideroi would probably base themselves in an Anatolian city.
Probably in Niceae or Nikomedia as that is still near Constantinople and is still in the region where money flows greatly.
 
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