An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Bronze]

Guys one of the most important historical coffee growers was Yemen. Coffee was grown up and down Western Arabia. Ethiopia has never had a monopoly.

True, but remember that the Romans+Ethiopians and the Hedjaz share a common hatred. I think Yemeni and Hedjazi coffee is shipped by Omani merchants to the Ottoman Empire to circumvent the obvious Ethiopian tariffs placed on the Ottomans, since Ethiopia and the Ottomans also do not like each other at all.

So, in effect, Ethiopia has nearly monopolized the coffee supply of Mediterranean Europe at the least. Maybe Portugal or Triunia could be buying Yemeni coffee from Oman, but for the entire Mediterranean region, I think Ethiopian coffee would be cheaper, especially since Ethiopia produces more coffee than all of Arabia combined.

 

[Evilprodigy]

True, but remember that the Romans+Ethiopians and the Hedjaz share a common hatred. I think Yemeni and Hedjazi coffee is shipped by Omani merchants to the Ottoman Empire to circumvent the obvious Ethiopian tariffs placed on the Ottomans, since Ethiopia and the Ottomans also do not like each other at all.

So, in effect, Ethiopia has nearly monopolized the coffee supply of Mediterranean Europe at the least. Maybe Portugal or Triunia could be buying Yemeni coffee from Oman, but for the entire Mediterranean region, I think Ethiopian coffee would be cheaper, especially since Ethiopia produces more coffee than all of Arabia combined.

If the Yemeni and Hedjazi are shipping coffee to the Ottomans, they will do so using traditional camel caravans across the Arabian desert to the Persian Gulf. That's cheaper and outside any real control of sea powers like Oman.

Yemen produces far too much coffee for Ethiopia to get anywhere close to a monopoly. Ethiopia may be the largest production in the world due to its size but Yemen is still a huge producer. Mocha (the city not the type of coffee) was historically the most important coffee trade hub in the world for centuries until it was eclipsed by British Aden. Notably that is still in Yemen. It is likely that, as you say, Ethiopia has a dominant market share in the Christian world but Yemen intern would likely dominate the Muslim world for the same reason. However, I find it unlikely that these would remain separate given their close proximity. One would not be able to dominate when competition is right across the Red Sea. Monopolies are incredibly valuable, but they can be easily broken end with the amount of coffee produced outside of Ethiopia they absolutely do not, and never will have, a monopoly.

 

[Frame]

Increasing their kaffos industry could be a good precedent to establish a client state in yemen in the future for Ethiopia

 

[Evilprodigy]

Increasing their kaffos industry could be a good precedent to establish a client state in yemen in the future for Ethiopia

That and control of trade flowing through the Red Sea.

Historically the Portuguese tried very hard to get that, taking Aden and Socotra briefly. Other European powers also tried. The British and Ottomans in Yemen, the French and Russians in Djibouti, the Italians in Somaliland, and probably more I don't know about.

Frankly everyone else would be furious if the Ethiopians controlled both sides of the Gate of Tears. That would allow them significant economic clout and and worrying ability to dictate trade terms. Even Ethiopia wouldn't want that, it's more trouble than it's worth, but sometimes people can be foolish and not see the potential repercussions. The Rhomans and Egyptians, at least, would be the most notable of people annoyed if Ethiopia took measures to control the Gate of Tears and the trade that flows through it. Even if the justification is coffee.

 

[Frame]

Maybe it would make more sense for Rome to take parts of yemen in the future, then. A good place to dock ships headed to the red sea + more domestic kaffos production

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Malaya has the best resource extraction potential out of all the current Roman colonies. Although wildly profitable, the tin and gold mines, followed by the pepper, gambier and rubber plantations when they pick up will require enormous amounts of labour to work. Thus, Malaya will be the focal point of immigration in South East Asia for the next couple centuries. Indians and Chinese who immigrate either to set up their own enterprises or as indentured labour will continue to do so at an exponential pace regardless of any political developments short of a total razing and salting of the peninsula. The question is: Will the Romans adopt either or both of the Kangani and Kangchu Systems like the British IOTL to gain a semblance of control over immigration? Maybe they'll devise a whole new system that surpasses both.

I think the Kangani system won't really be relevant ITTL, considering the strength of the City of Victory. Or at least if there is a system of indentured servitude coming in as labour, it could have a very different source. The thread repeatedly dwells on the Alt-Phillipenes as an area that could be a huge population centre, so you could see some from there, but I expect that'd be needed. There is a population shortage in some regards back in Europe and the Heartland, so unless that recovers I doubt we'll see immigrants from there. Maybe China, Korea and Japan? Korea has been devestated, and many people could choose to emigrate rather than rebuild, Japan could use a demographic vent, and whilst the Zeng are united, is there enough work?

Considering the Roman population shortages are basically a character of the Empire at this point, with immigration from anywhere in Europe tolerated and needed, it wouldn't surprise me if D3 considers promoting larger families in some way. Maybe a tax-exemption for families with ten children, or priorities in allocating lands without owners. Heck, if the Great Crime is what is expected we're going to have... how many demographic shortages in the Empire? Mesopotamia, RITE, Egypt, Syria, Balkans. I appreciate the Romans are already importing a lot of food because they're so urbanised, but I think it should be emphasised how manpower could be a serious limiting factor long term, just as it always has.

(I didn't mention it earlier, but Kangshu seems more organic and a result of the Zeng, that might just be a system that emerges ITTL IMO)

If he crosses the Indus and establishes an Empire stretching from the Maghreb to Bengal, from Tanais to the East Indies and Australia, people will start referring to Alexander as 'the Earlier Odysseus'.

All Hail Odysseus Megas! In seriousness, I think it's fair to say Alexanders feat would still be considered more impressive for the time, especially considering the relative start points.

 

[Bronze]

Considering the Roman population shortages are basically a character of the Empire at this point, with immigration from anywhere in Europe tolerated and needed, it wouldn't surprise me if D3 considers promoting larger families in some way. Maybe a tax-exemption for families with ten children, or priorities in allocating lands without owners. Heck, if the Great Crime is what is expected we're going to have... how many demographic shortages in the Empire? Mesopotamia, RITE, Egypt, Syria, Balkans. I appreciate the Romans are already importing a lot of food because they're so urbanised, but I think it should be emphasised how manpower could be a serious limiting factor long term, just as it always has.

Side note: I'm pretty sure that there already are significant tax exemptions (at least in the head tax) dating back to Timur I's invasions, with Demetrios and Manuel slashing head tax for every extra child and levying extra tax on unmarried men.

 

[Cryostorm]

Considering the Roman population shortages are basically a character of the Empire at this point, with immigration from anywhere in Europe tolerated and needed, it wouldn't surprise me if D3 considers promoting larger families in some way. Maybe a tax-exemption for families with ten children, or priorities in allocating lands without owners. Heck, if the Great Crime is what is expected we're going to have... how many demographic shortages in the Empire? Mesopotamia, RITE, Egypt, Syria, Balkans. I appreciate the Romans are already importing a lot of food because they're so urbanised, but I think it should be emphasised how manpower could be a serious limiting factor long term, just as it always has.

If I am not mistaken isn't Greece proper and Anatolia recovered completely and reaching, or even surpassed, their current carrying capacity? The major demographic blows of the Rhoman War of Succession have been Bulgaria, seriously life sucks to be Bulgarian in TTL, and the Syria-Palestine though though that is mostly self imposed. There is also probably a surplus in Sicily at this point and maybe Vlachia as well, possibly even Georgia.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

As far as Yemen goes I wouldn’t be surprised to see some sort of tripartite split eventually as the Omani and Ethiopians surely would like it gone and I bet Egypt/Rome would shed zero tears if they got rid of an Ottoman ally and gained a few cities in the process. Egypt/Rome gaining something running from about Aden up north to around Taizz then west to about Mocha, while the other two divide the rest. The location is useful for Rome but with a small enough population that it’s manageable. If Rome want to form something like a client state instead of direct control maybe theY go north from Aden to the boarder to get Sana’a as well.

 

[Stark]

Getting any secure port in Gulf of Aden should be major priority for a nation with such extensive eastern holdings and based in Eastern Med. I'm frankly surprised they don't have one already, Ethiopian support is nice but it's better to have something you control directly.

 

[Βοανηργές]

I think the Kangani system won't really be relevant ITTL, considering the strength of the City of Victory. Or at least if there is a system of indentured servitude coming in as labour, it could have a very different source. The thread repeatedly dwells on the Alt-Phillipenes as an area that could be a huge population centre, so you could see some from there, but I expect that'd be needed. There is a population shortage in some regards back in Europe and the Heartland, so unless that recovers I doubt we'll see immigrants from there. Maybe China, Korea and Japan? Korea has been devestated, and many people could choose to emigrate rather than rebuild, Japan could use a demographic vent, and whilst the Zeng are united, is there enough work?

The City of Victory may not be keen on seeing its denizens forced into servitude, but I'm not sure they would be as vocal for the many political dissidents, rebellious nobles or separatists under its rule. The Herakleians or Philippines massive manpower advantage is a relatively late 20th century development. Duncan Mckenzie's "The Unlucky Country" names just around 667 thousand citizens for 1591 Philippines which is less than 3% of South-east Asia's population. With better education and human development, the population would maybe level out faster. The closest reliable population bases are South and East Asia which have been immigration sources for almost a thousand years. However, an interesting region to throw its name into the hat would be East Africa and Arabia, with Ethiopia and Oman having more trade-oriented societies. I wonder what status is conferred on Swahili in both nations. Administrative language or just lingua franca?

(I didn't mention it earlier, but Kangshu seems more organic and a result of the Zeng, that might just be a system that emerges ITTL IMO)

Kangchu started off organically, but was co-opted by the Sultanate of Johor. Maybe Rome can make them official agents of the bureaucracy. A new Ministry specifically dedicated to colonial immigration - Chinese and Indian Romans working as agents at various recruitment centers set up in major Vijayanagari and Zeng cities, tax collectors and administrators in the Katepano and educators to help their fellow immigrants integrate better.

All Hail Odysseus Megas! In seriousness, I think it's fair to say Alexanders feat would still be considered more impressive for the time, especially considering the relative start points.

Definitely trailblazer and pioneer status rests with Alexander for Best Ancient Logistics Manager. However, I feel in my heart that Odysseus will sweep him militarily. I wonder how much of the coming success will come from Kalomeros. Maybe one to rule the waves while one rules Asia.

On a different note, while re-reading some of the earlier regional updates, I thought about a polity I would love to know more about and Rome's ancient dueling partner- the Ottoman/Persian Empire. How is its treatment of its minorities? Is there state support for the Church of the East to act as a bulwark against Roman Christianity? What are some of the more impressive Iskandar-era reforms?
I have yet another question about the Thomasine Christians (I know I know, please bear with me). What are the percentages that have decided to enter communion with the Orthodox Church? I know many near Alappuzha have decided to convert but how does the Thomasine Orthodox church fare in the rest of Kerala under Vijayanagari control?

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

I wonder if the Romans will still call themselves Romans till the present day. I wonder how hey think of the label “Greek”.

 

[Lascaris]

I wonder if the Romans will still call themselves Romans till the present day. I wonder how hey think of the label “Greek”.

The are probably used interchangeably just like OTL with Greek gaining ground but Roman being in a comparatively stronger place than current day Greece. After all they were increasingly using the term before the POD with none other than Theodore II being one of the most enthusiastic users. And TTL we probably see a strong current that the Romans of old were themselves Greek. After all its not that difficult to make the claim given the relative closeness of the two. Just emphasize things like Heraclides Ponticus calling Rome a Greek city, the Romans getting accepted to the Olympics after 228 BC, the origin myth of Rome from Aeneas and the Trojans were of course Greeks and so on.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

I wonder if the Romans will still call themselves Romans till the present day. I wonder how hey think of the label “Greek”.

Both but it depends on which region they are born and raised in.

 

[Aristomenes]

@Duke of Nova Scotia thank you for this highly emotional update!

 

[Frame]

I wonder if the Romans will still call themselves Romans till the present day. I wonder how hey think of the label “Greek”.

If a latin barbarian calls them a greek they are going to get a fist to the face. If their fellow Roman says it they probably don't care

 

[Bronze]

The problem is that, from a linguistic and ethnic persepective, the Fifth Empire is indeed overwhelmingly, though not completely, Greek. There are also Armenian, Vlach, Russian and German minorities living in the empire, and methinks 'Greek' would be 100% inappropriate for them. Call an Armenian 'Greek' and he'd punch you in the face, whether you're Roman or not.

 

[Bronze]

Rather, I think the Latin west will eventually rid themselves of this childish habit of calling everything Roman 'Greek' and invent some other word to describe them, like Romanian (from Romania, latinised from 'Rhomania', Greek short form for 'Basileia Rhomaion' Roman Empire, which is likely the official Greek name of the empire).

 

[Evilprodigy]

The problem is that, from a linguistic and ethnic persepective, the Fifth Empire is indeed overwhelmingly, though not completely, Greek. There are also Armenian, Vlach, Russian and German minorities living in the empire, and methinks 'Greek' would be 100% inappropriate for them. Call an Armenian 'Greek' and he'd punch you in the face, whether you're Roman or not.

Is Fifth Empire a common term to refer to this empire?

I watched a video on the French having a Fifth Republic recently so honestly this could be a neat parallel to show off Rhomania as being a distinct but connected state to Rome. The Fifth Roman Empire. Latins might even be willing to grudgingly accept it. I could see it being used by them somewhat officially.

 

[Frame]

Rather, I think the Latin west will eventually rid themselves of this childish habit of calling everything Roman 'Greek' and invent some other word to describe them, like Romanian (from Romania, latinised from 'Rhomania', Greek short form for 'Basileia Rhomaion' Roman Empire, which is likely the official Greek name of the empire).

They might go with calling it the Byzantine or Nicene empire. Acknowledging the Romanness of Rhomania seems like a tough pill to swallow for the latins