An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

This armada is only an Armada in the sense that it is a flotilla of Spanish warships. It is very different from the Armadas sent against England, in scope, technology and size.
 
I still hope, if I ever get to the present day ITTL, that the final update (not including an epilogue) is the first Roman probe/ship entering the Alpha Centauri system.
When that happens, we'll all be ready if you decide to dip your toes into Science Fiction and start the much-awaited for Rhomaion in Space TL.

I admit I completely spaced on the naming of the Pacific. There hasn’t been much exploring of it; knowledge is comparable to the OTL point in time. There’s the stretch covered by the Pyrgos galleons between the Herakleians and Mexico, plus some poking around New Guinea and the Solomons, but the likes of New Zealand, Tahiti, Hawaii, and Alaska are completely unknown (save to the inhabitants).
The Pacific was first discovered and given an entirely different name by the Spanish. But, the Portuguese name stuck after they completed the first circumnavigation of the globe. I imagine it will be the same ITTL because of the prestige associated with the achievement. As of 1593, no one had circumnavigated the world yet. Will TTL's Magellan be Roman instead? (Maybe Kalomeros if he gets homesick?)

So for now the Chinese army in Korea remains where it is. The Koreans, meanwhile, are committed to driving the Chinese completely out of the peninsula. The war will continue.
What's the Roman delegations' actions be if the Korean army manages to secure the peninsula? Since they can't raid the Chinese coast, will they leave for Java?
 
An interesting idea if this tl was ever adapted into a show could be in the far future on a Rhoman Colony in Alpha Centuari
 
Jingtai Emperor should move more soldier-farmers into occupied territory to have them farm and occupy territory if the navy is not up to scratch. This could potentially shorten the supply line, help suppress guerrillas and allow Li Rusong’s main forces to engage the coalition army instead of garrison occupied territories.They need not fight like the Japanese did, considering China’s superior resources and land border with Korea. They have ample of advantages compared to the Japanese.
That’s a good idea and a really good way to secure the frontier. But’s that a long-term fix and the Chinese are focused firstly on Liaodong.

For the name of the Pacific, you could have it named after the gold and silver galleons that cross it or reference to its vast apparent emptiness.

For maximum irony maybe a major typhoon rips through the area, maybe during the Spanish Armada's attack, and it gets named for the massive and powerful storms that cross it. The Tempest, Typhon, or Zeus Ocean certainly has a ring to it, or maybe even the Kamikaze Ocean.
The seapowers that cross first and most often have the best chance to put a name on the charts. Which power is that and we can speculate from there.
The Andrean ocean or the Niketan ocean. It has a temper... like king David's dad (yes that Andreas) had and the first Europeans to reach it TTL were probably the conquest of Mexico and Peru.
On a personal level, I like the ‘Polynesian Ocean’ as a tribute to the ancient seafarers; they deserve it. But the Polynesians weren’t the best publicists so I’m not sure how that would work out ITTL. Alternatively, I like the idea of a name that references its huge size, like the World Ocean or the Ultimate Ocean.

Nice to see Kalomeros get some action, I hope he rises through the ranks again. He will really see the world in his life, books about him should be a fun read.
Sounds like abother good opportunity for Kalomeros to make a name for himself, let’s say the Romans and Spanish are roughly even after the Armada arrives, it’s the reinforcements from the Korean front that turns the tide!
He’s certainly having a far-flung career. And he is rising up.

"Considering the Roman-Spanish battles off Java..."

"The Romans go so far as to threaten to withdraw their naval forces. Their fourth-raters are wasted here but are needed in Java."

Looks like the Armada made it with enough ships/crew intact to cause some damage after all.

Great update!
There’s a friction between writing a history as opposed to writing a story. In history certain threads may appear that seem significant in the moment, but then dead end without going anywhere. But that’s sloppy storytelling. I did the ‘seems a big deal, then gets yanked away suddenly because history rolls that way’ with Andreas III, which is still recent (in TL chronology, less so update schedule) so I wasn’t planning on doing it again soon.

Looks like we may be getting Chinese (North) Korea and a Japanese dominated (South) Korea. No doubt this Will be the first of many conflicts between the Chinese and Japanese empires.
I’m far from sure exactly how the dynamics will play out, but East Asia with the Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese, as well as the Russians which will be there in force within the next century, will certainly be interesting.

Great update as expected B444

I love the hints at what is happening elsewhere.

I won't deny that I'm a little surprised that the Romans aren't able to provide some expertise in terms of logistical support (although I suppose they may be more naval-focused in this theatre). Here's hoping that the more aggressive naval action will allow the armies to focus on a northern campaign supplied by the sea, it'd be a great result if Korea ends up a major naval threat at the end of this war. Particularly if a certain Admiral can fortify Lushan. It might make up for a loss of territory, but being able to strangle Chinese logistics from there would be a silver lining to the war that is happening right now.
The number of Romans compared to the number of Japanese and Koreans is ludicrously tiny. There’s literally a thousand Koreans for every one Roman involved in the conflict. The Romans seem more prominent, but a lot of that is due to the focus and interest of the writer (me) and the readers. (An important factor to consider when analyzing any historical text.)

Furthermore the Romans here are all navy people, so they wouldn’t be much help in organizing a wagon train anyway.

Oh I don't think anyone was questioning THAT. Merely the widsom of the act or what will happen if Demetrios decides to react in the Mediterranean instead. Or for that matter what will be left of Spanish trade when Greek privateers go after it like locusts with the White Palace's blessings.
The issue with reacting in the Mediterranean is that it is a massive escalation. The Spanish are sending an unprecedented force for a colonial dispute, but they send ships east every year. Attacking Spain in the Mediterranean turns this from ‘unusually big colonial dispute’ to ‘all out war’. And since Rhomania would legally be the aggressor, Arles and the Bernese League are treaty-bound to join on Spain’s side, and Spain+Arles have a slightly higher number of battle-line ships than Rhomania does. Rhomania could still win, but it wouldn’t be pretty or easy, and the real beneficiaries of such a war would be Henri II and Ibrahim.

When that happens, we'll all be ready if you decide to dip your toes into Science Fiction and start the much-awaited for Rhomaion in Space TL.


The Pacific was first discovered and given an entirely different name by the Spanish. But, the Portuguese name stuck after they completed the first circumnavigation of the globe. I imagine it will be the same ITTL because of the prestige associated with the achievement. As of 1593, no one had circumnavigated the world yet. Will TTL's Magellan be Roman instead? (Maybe Kalomeros if he gets homesick?)

What's the Roman delegations' actions be if the Korean army manages to secure the peninsula? Since they can't raid the Chinese coast, will they leave for Java?
Unfortunately my pre-existing sci-fi universe would be hard to adapt to Space Romans, considering humans aren’t even in it.

Roman delegation’s actions are mainly tied in to what the Japanese do, as supporting the Japanese is why they’re there in the first place. (Don’t want to go into more specifics because it comes up in the next update.)



The next update of Not the End: The Empire under the Laskarid Dynasty has been posted on Patreon for Megas Kyr patrons. Theodoros II and Michael Palaiologos show down for the pivotal battle of Kios, the climax of the Nobles’ Revolt. If you want a much more developed rewrite of the early low-quality stages of the TL, please check it out. For comparison, Not the End is already longer than the original TL section that covered the 1221-1400 period.

Thank you again for your support.
 
I wish i could just have a conversation with an average Rhoman from this tl. It'd be interesting to hear their personal thoughts about these eventz
 
I wish i could just have a conversation with an average Rhoman from this tl. It'd be interesting to hear their personal thoughts about these eventz
I thought that the average person from most countries at this time were a combination of what we would consider xenophobic and very religious, I don't know if you would get along...
It would still be very interesting tho.
 
I wonder if the population of Greek speaking Christians in Rhomania in the east will eclipse the population of the mainland in the future if they're able to conquer most of Island asia
 
I wonder if the population of Greek speaking Christians in Rhomania in the east will eclipse the population of the mainland in the future if they're able to conquer most of Island asia
Almost certainly the Christians will - at least if modern demographic trends are mimicked - Greek less so I expect. It really depends on how widely the language can spread as a lingua franca - for that it'd need to be competing with Malay linguistically, which I doubt it does yet. Heck, I doubt it is more widely spoken than Javanese, and that'd be no small feat either.

Though you had me realise, Indonesia grows a staggering amount of rice to my knowledge. I wonder if the Romans might ever start importing rice from the east once bulk shipping makes that practical
 
Though you had me realise, Indonesia grows a staggering amount of rice to my knowledge. I wonder if the Romans might ever start importing rice from the east once bulk shipping makes that practical
I'd laugh if the Romans treat rice, palm oil, and other agricultural goods as being the most important piece of the empire well into the 20th Century regardless of the significance of fossil fuel or gas reserves in the area.
 
Though you had me realise, Indonesia grows a staggering amount of rice to my knowledge. I wonder if the Romans might ever start importing rice from the east once bulk shipping makes that practical
Only really Java grew rice with anything resembling a surplus. The rest of the islands imported food from Java or lived on subsistence.

If the Rhomans are going to see rice as an important import they'll need to step up their presence down there, as the western third of Java is in the sway of Spain under the Sultanate of Sunda so exports from the island are split. The Rhomans also expressed more interest in spices than rice, much like the OTL Dutch. If history is anything to go by then Java's fertile farmland will get transitioned over to Coffee, Cotton, Indigo, and Sugar among other cash crops either slowly over time or quickly like in the massively destructive Cultivation System the Dutch implemented in the 19th century.
 

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Almost certainly the Christians will - at least if modern demographic trends are mimicked - Greek less so I expect. It really depends on how widely the language can spread as a lingua franca - for that it'd need to be competing with Malay linguistically, which I doubt it does yet. Heck, I doubt it is more widely spoken than Javanese, and that'd be no small feat either.
I could see Malay becoming a second language of the Rhomania in the West while Greek does the same in the East, with it being required to enter government service. Maybe some enterprising Orthodox priest converts Malay into the Greek alphabet the same way Vietnam switched to Latin script.
 
Only really Java grew rice with anything resembling a surplus. The rest of the islands imported food from Java or lived on subsistence.
Dating back to when, though? The Indonesian Archipelago was vastly, vastly less populous until very recently, historically speaking. We're not talking about China or Japan here. There would have been a lot more scope to grow basic foodstuffs for export in 1600 than there was by 1950.

That said, I agree that it wouldn't be anywhere near the most profitable use of the land. Even with the Romans having interbred there and regarding the locals as fellow citizens instead of subjects, there's still a lot of scope to increase production of export crops without devastating the local people and ecology as IOTL.
 
Dating back to when, though? The Indonesian Archipelago was vastly, vastly less populous until very recently, historically speaking. We're not talking about China or Japan here. There would have been a lot more scope to grow basic foodstuffs for export in 1600 than there was by 1950.

That said, I agree that it wouldn't be anywhere near the most profitable use of the land. Even with the Romans having interbred there and regarding the locals as fellow citizens instead of subjects, there's still a lot of scope to increase production of export crops without devastating the local people and ecology as IOTL.
Since at least the middle ages.

The geology of Java is volcanic and somewhat flat, unlike Sumatra, and has much arable land. The rest of Indonesia has significantly low population density because of food insecurity. Rice is still grown there but plantations for spices didn't exist until the colonial era. Spice production was the effort of gatherers in the jungle or some small planters, depending on the spice of course. This is the antithesis of landed agriculture, and the landscapes that make for good spices don't make for good rice growing without significant alteration to the ecosystem. Java's been the breadbasket of the East Indies and made its niche the plantation agriculture that would come much later, but applied to foodstuffs. Javan rice fed Indonesia in the colonial period and Javans even before then were the largest population group in Indonesia due to their plentiful food supply, which they in turn traded for spices alongside other goods they produced in plantations such as banana, palm, coconut, and cotton.

You can get a quick and dirty summary of some of that here where I've timestamped:
 
Since at least the middle ages.

The geology of Java is volcanic and somewhat flat, unlike Sumatra, and has much arable land. The rest of Indonesia has significantly low population density because of food insecurity. Rice is still grown there but plantations for spices didn't exist until the colonial era. Spice production was the effort of gatherers in the jungle or some small planters, depending on the spice of course. This is the antithesis of landed agriculture, and the landscapes that make for good spices don't make for good rice growing without significant alteration to the ecosystem. Java's been the breadbasket of the East Indies and made its niche the plantation agriculture that would come much later, but applied to foodstuffs. Javan rice fed Indonesia in the colonial period and Javans even before then were the largest population group in Indonesia due to their plentiful food supply, which they in turn traded for spices alongside other goods they produced in plantations such as banana, palm, coconut, and cotton.

You can get a quick and dirty summary of some of that here where I've timestamped:
I always love how informative your responses are my guy. Discussions are always much more interesting when you take part in them :)
 
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