An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Due to Hungary being at odds with the Rest of the non Avingon catholics will they switch back to Avingon or maybe they Bohmanism could take root there. Also didn't some Hungarian soldiers convert to Orthidoxy? Is it possible for Hungary to even become Orthidox?
 
Due to Hungary being at odds with the Rest of the non Avingon catholics will they switch back to Avingon or maybe they Bohmanism could take root there. Also didn't some Hungarian soldiers convert to Orthidoxy? Is it possible for Hungary to even become Orthidox?
Normally I wouldn't say it's possible for a country in this time period to wholly or mostly transition to another faith but there is historical precedent for it in both the time period and territory... Twice.

Hungary became almost completely Calvinist IOTL during its time under Ottoman rule, then almost completely Catholic after the counter-reformation hit following unification with Austria.

Orthodoxy is a different bag of cats than Calvinism or Catholicism, so Bohmanism is more likely if they even change at all, but because it happened twice makes me think it could be possible under the right circumstances: such as state patronage by the Austrians or lack of patronage by the Turks.
 
Normally I wouldn't say it's possible for a country in this time period to wholly or mostly transition to another faith but there is historical precedent for it in both the time period and territory... Twice.

Hungary became almost completely Calvinist IOTL during its time under Ottoman rule, then almost completely Catholic after the counter-reformation hit following unification with Austria.

Orthodoxy is a different bag of cats than Calvinism or Catholicism, so Bohmanism is more likely if they even change at all, but because it happened twice makes me think it could be possible under the right circumstances: such as state patronage by the Austrians or lack of patronage by the Turks.
I'd add that there are other aspects in play as well, especially regionally.

Orthodoxy ITTL is much stronger, especially in this region and whilst it's strongest proponent has been an enemy of Hungary in the past, and I'd need to go through the threadmarks to see what D3 said about them, the Latin-Orthodox distinction is prominent, and Hungary very much flipped on the Latins politically. It may not mean a huge change in terms of practice but I could see the rise of an Autocephalous majority in this Hungary. As much because of political change as the socioeconomic orbit it now exists in. Vlachs? Serbs, Romans, all Orthodox, all going to be their largest economic partners. The Danube is Orthodox now, and that will bleed into Hungary in it's cities.
 
I'd add that there are other aspects in play as well, especially regionally.

Orthodoxy ITTL is much stronger, especially in this region and whilst it's strongest proponent has been an enemy of Hungary in the past, and I'd need to go through the threadmarks to see what D3 said about them, the Latin-Orthodox distinction is prominent, and Hungary very much flipped on the Latins politically. It may not mean a huge change in terms of practice but I could see the rise of an Autocephalous majority in this Hungary. As much because of political change as the socioeconomic orbit it now exists in. Vlachs? Serbs, Romans, all Orthodox, all going to be their largest economic partners. The Danube is Orthodox now, and that will bleed into Hungary in it's cities.
It's also possible you could get a Bosnian Church situation where in order to avoid favouring one side over another they pick a middle way and make a unique national church. Something like England after the first Act of Supremacy where the church is separated from the wider Catholic world but not reformed into a protestant one. Though like England it could of course come to self-identify with, and adopt the teaching of, religious reformists and Orthodox theologians.
 
On the subject of Bosnia's Church, I am somewhat curious as to its status. It died when the Ottomans arrived and final gave a third way that wasn't Western or Eastern Christianity, it's why Bsonia converted to Islam so quickly and totally.

ITTL though the Rhomans have been more lenient with heretical churches. I do not remember if the Bosnian church was involved in the designation of Noble Heresy or not. Does anyone recall?
 
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On the subject of Bosnia's Church, I am somewhat curious as to its status. It died when the Ottomans arrived and final gave a third way that wasn't Western or Eastern Christianity, it's why Bsonia converted to Islam so quickly and totally.

ITTL though the Rhomans have been more lenient with heretical churches. I do not remember if the Bosnian church was involved in the designation of Noble Heresy or not. Does anyone recall?
I think there was something about being pretty repressed in Serbia but in Rhomania itself I imagine it would be tolerated
 
Had a little time before a conference call and did a quick search of previous posts. Couldn't find much in the timeline about Bosnians or their church. Doesn't mean that it isn't there of course, like I said it was a quick search. If I had to guess I'd assume that given the nature of Rhoman Europe that Bosnians who are looking for advancement are at least nominally Orthodox? I'd guess that they follow the Bulgarian model in that regard but again, that's mostly educated speculation.
 
I found it under 1422
While the Romans are occupied with the Ottomans, Lazar begins his invasion of Bosnia. His main justification is the nature of the Bosnian church, which has the dubious honor of being considered heretical by both Catholic and Orthodox churches. Portraying himself as a defender of Orthodoxy against heresy, Lazar sweeps into Zahumlje first, burning churches as he goes. The advance is spearheaded by the Serbian knights, still led by Durad Brankovic. At the village of Cerici, they are challenged by a Bosnian levy that outnumbers them nearly two to one; one cavalry charge sweeps them aside.

Enraged because of the burning of churches and eager to avenge the defeat at Cerici, the Bosnian ban (king) Trvtko III Subic, gathers the full weight of the Bosnian levy at Vrci. Unfortunately for him, his cavalry is only armored in mail, and all of his infantry are peasant conscripts, hardy individuals but not trained soldiers. When the Serbs arrive at Vrci, the Bosnian army launches a fierce attack spearheaded by the men of Vrhbosna, who swing giant clubs with iron heads. The Serbian lines hold under the fierce attack while Durad annihilates the Bosnian cavalry and then charges into the rear of the Bosnian army. At once it shatters, the peasants scattering into the woods, many of them being run down by Serbian light cavalry. Amidst the bodies of the slain is Trvtko Subic.

The rest of Bosnia submits rapidly after Vrci, although the city of Vrhbosna resists for eight days, capitulating after the first known use of Serbian cannon. The Bosnian church is outlawed, its buildings either destroyed or converted into Orthodox structures. Serbian priests are brought in to minister the Bosnian flock, while colonies of Serbian settlers are established at Vrhbosna, Konjic, and Zenica. They are given land in exchange for military service, serving as either infantry or cavalry depending on the size of the estate. Four times a year they are required to attend a ten day review for training, and are obligated to meet individual proficiency tests or have their lands revoked.
 
Once nationalism develops more will Serbia and Hungary start scrapping again over Vojivodina?
that's pretty much impossible, Serbian settlement in that region occurred as a result of refugee waves following the Ottoman conquests and the desire of the Hungarians and Austrians to develop the borderland in order to protect more northern territory from Ottoman raiding.

Neither the refugee waves nor the constant border pinpricks occurred. There is thus neither the support for Serbian supplements in their region nor a population to settle there in the first place. it is likely majority Hungarian, with a possibly small of minority of serbians near Belgrade.
I found it under 1422
Thank you very much for finding this!
 
that's pretty much impossible, Serbian settlement in that region occurred as a result of refugee waves following the Ottoman conquests and the desire of the Hungarians and Austrians to develop the borderland in order to protect more northern territory from Ottoman raiding.

Neither the refugee waves nor the constant border pinpricks occurred. There is thus neither the support for Serbian supplements in their region nor a population to settle there in the first place. it is likely majority Hungarian, with a possibly small of minority of serbians near Belgrade.

Thank you very much for finding this!
Oh wait I just remembered Vojivodina is Vlach atm not Hungarian. Perhaps once Rhome starts to fall behind during the first industrial revolution Hungary could attempt to snatch Transylvania and Vojivodina back
 
I apologize if I seem a bit short with responses. I love that there are a ton of responses, but the bad part of that is because of numbers, that makes it hard and time-consuming to respond to everything. And at this point, it’s either be shorter with my response post or delay the next update; I figure everyone would prefer the former.

Thank you.

Romans Supporting the Sikhs: They started doing that when Kishan Das looked like he was on his way out, caught between his rebellious brother (backed by the Triunes) and the Viceroyalty. So the Sikhs were to be their new ally to replace Kishan Das. His revival took the Romans completely by surprise, by which point it was too late. It’s a case of the Romans being too clever for their own good.

Lotharingia: The devil’s in the details. The end results will depend on exactly how the war pans out. Areas taken that already have a historical connection with the Kingdom of France (Flanders, Franche-Comte) will certainly become part of the Kingdom of France again. As for anything else, it will be too. Henri II doesn’t want to juggle another crown if he can help it.

Seeds be planting.

Despotates/Katepanates: Despotates are a good compromise between a people that are part of the Roman Empire but want more autonomy and the Romans who want to keep them part of the Empire. The concept was deliberately developed at the end of the Time of Troubles as a compromise between the Sicilians/Egyptians and the Romans. (Carthage is a special case because it voluntarily became part of the Roman Empire; it was not conquered.)

So if an eastern people started pushing like the Copts or Sicilians did, a Despotate might be the compromise. However if they aren’t pushing, the Romans wouldn’t offer.

A certain amount of autonomy is inevitable simply because of distance. Even today, Manila is a long way from Istanbul.

One idea I have is that the various Despotates and Katepanates plus the Imperial heartland involve into a sort of ‘United States of Rhomania’, where the various Despotates and Katepanates and the heartland become ‘Roman states’ with their own governments, while also sending representatives to an ‘Imperial Federal’ government in Constantinople.

I'm curious about Japan, it has been more or less united now? Was that by the Christians? What about that bit in Hokkaido?
Japan has been united by the Orthodox Shimazu, who also wiped out the Imperial family and appointed themselves Emperors of Japan for good measure, which did not go down well at all. So they’ve been dealing with rebels and enforcing their authority. It’s slow going but they’re making progress, helped by rebel disunity and a substantial Shimazu superiority in gunpowder tech.

Hokkaido at this stage is the same as OTL. I haven’t messed with it.

Is arles going to be annexing any of northern Italy? I remember a few updates back some cities asked arles to take them over in order to not be destroyed by Rhomania
I haven’t decided yet. But one thing I want to emphasize in this TL is that while the Romans are the ‘main character’, everyone else also has agendas and agency.

A lot to unpack in the last couple updates.

1) It hasn’t been shown what but something happened in the 1460-1485 range that allowed the original dynasty of Vijayanagar to continue. So no battle of Talicota? In 1565 that permanently weakened the empire and set it on its path of terminal decline. It appears that Vijayanagar has more or less consolidated its territory and it; or a direct successor; will continue to dominate South India until the present day.

2)It is also clear that all of the Indian states are going to have some difficulties in the coming decades that will limit their ability to truly compete with European powers outside of India itself. They still rely on land grants for their armies which will cause problems and the cultural ideal that only mercenaries take pure cash will make it difficult to change. In addition administratively all the states more closely resemble the HRE rather than Rome with all the inefficiencies that entails.

3)We see perhaps a shift in Vijayanagar gaze away from island Asia towards North India with them content to merely give assistance to a European power in Island Asia.

4)I think the ultimate victor of the coming Spain/Rhome dust-up will be the one given the honour of allying Vijayanagar. For reasons I’ve previously outline this will almost certainly be Rhomania which will allow them to fully consolidate Island Asia.

5) Have any of the Indian States changed inheritance law? As I recall the inability to transfer wealth/power between generations to nearly the same extent as Europe contributed to their downfall since the wealthy elite commonly would spend their fortunes frivolously or give vast sums to temples starving the private sector of long term investment relative to Europe. It also meant that institutionally India fell far behind Europe as time went on. Essentially when your a 6th generation diplomat serving his majesty you learned more about diplomacy sitting on grandads knee than an Indian diplomat learned in a lifetime and this was true across multiple fields.
Something did happen differently in Vijayanagar’s history. I can’t be more specific than ‘butterflies’ though. Vijayanagar was originally just a space-filling empire with a cooler name than most. It’s only in the last year or so that I’ve really learned anything more about it.

Talicota certainly didn’t happen. My rough-draft head-canon is that the Bahmani either never formed a unified Deccan Sultanate or broke apart much earlier than OTL, which gave Vijayanagar the ability to conquer the Deccan. ITTL, it was already a major player by the time of Shah Rukh (1440s-50s).

I admit I haven’t given any thought to inheritance law.

Another thing that crossed my mind today; have the supposed ruins of Troy in otl Hisarlik been discovered? With better excavation techniques tll i imagine more artifacts would be preserved. What will the Rhomans think when they find out the Trojans were most likely greeks. Considering the roots they have in anatolia i can imagine they would embrace it. More specifically i wonder what Odysseus would think of it considering his namesake although it may be discovered long after his death.
They have not, although Demetrios Sideros when he was Kephale of Skammandros was really really close.

Oh, and assuming that Wilusa=Troy, the Trojans were Luwians, not Greeks.

New Zealand/Pacific Islands: Those are way way beyond the horizon for Roman capabilities at the moment, or for the next century. All the money (and threats) are in Island Asia.

Was it ever explained why Europe isn't going to have a huge advantage over the rest of the world in this timeline? Not that I'm complaining, I'm just curious if there's a specific divergence that's caused it.
Check out @Evilprodigy responses (thank you for those BTW). To add onto that, the parts of the non-West that will be best able to resist western colonialism/imperialism will be the areas that manage to keep being centralized large states. The British and French didn’t become real players in India until after the Mughals collapsed, which is not a coincidence. The Qing weren’t the healthiest of dynasties even before the First Opium War.

So certain parts of Asia and Africa (Ethiopia and Kongo) will be big enough and organized enough that westerners wouldn’t even think of trying anything funny. Other areas that are more politically fragmented (Indonesia, West Africa, Non-Mexican America) though will follow a course more similar to OTL.

Does the northern alliance refer to the Treaty of Patna participants (north of Cuttack) or does it refer to the Treaty of Agra participants? (More north than Patna)
Oudh and Sutanuti. Vijayanagar, being in the south of India, doesn’t really work as part of a ‘northern alliance’.

Whats kingdom of the isles, and why dont carthage /genoa attempts to seize it? Its in the middle of their sealanes and if there's anything genoa/carthage have, its ships.
Corsica, Sardinia, and the Balearic Islands. Carthage at this stage is pretty much a glorified city-state and got plastered by the Marinids really badly in the recent past, so they’re not in a good position to go conquering.

Plus the Kingdom of the Isles is on fairly good terms with Rhomania; they provided a lot of logistical support for the anti-Lombard blockade during the war.

Will we ever get an update from the perspective of my boy Leo Kalamaros aka Napoleon?
Yes, although remember at this point he is still a junior naval officer commanding a sloop.

How different is the english language? i assume it's a bit more latenised due to the union between the english and the french.
On another note did the anglo-french colonise anything? and how balanced is the union?
It does have some more French influence. Check out the Triple Monarchy threadmark; I go into more detail of them there.

The Triunes have Caribbean colonies and ones in North Terranova that roughly approximate the American colonies of OTL.

Due to Hungary being at odds with the Rest of the non Avingon catholics will they switch back to Avingon or maybe they Bohmanism could take root there. Also didn't some Hungarian soldiers convert to Orthidoxy? Is it possible for Hungary to even become Orthidox?
Some POWs did. Due to economics, I see Orthodoxy spreading in Hungary because of the commercial ties. Whether that will remain as a minority or gradually convert all of Hungary I haven’t decided.
 
Thank you so much for putting up with my never ending flurry of questions lmao this Timeline is just so fascinating that its on my mind all day
 
I apologize if I seem a bit short with responses. I love that there are a ton of responses, but the bad part of that is because of numbers, that makes it hard and time-consuming to respond to everything. And at this point, it’s either be shorter with my response post or delay the next update; I figure everyone would prefer the former.

Thank you.
Don't worry about it, you can't reasonably be expected to answer every single question that pops up in this thread. For me at least, general responses like this are fine.
 
Don't worry about it, you can't reasonably be expected to answer every single question that pops up in this thread. For me at least, general responses like this are fine.
I cosign this answer. The answers you do give are more than adequate.

Long-term will Japan be considered part of the "Greater West" given their Orthodoxy and ties to Rhomania?
 
At that point, would OTL conceptions of 'The West' even really be applicable, or arise to begin with?
It's not. That's why he used the "greater west" term that's been coined before to describe advanced non-west European nations. It's a somewhat self-absorbed term to be used by the west, mostly Triunes for begrudging acceptance of a political reality with a sort of 'seperate but equal' mentality that still somewhat treats them as inferior.

This would include Rhome, though they would certainly say they are more than advanced enough that such a designation as the periphery of Western civilization is idiotic, especially considering they control the birthplace of it, As well as Egypt and Ethiopia, I think also the Russian states too. In this regard Japan certainly would be included in this definition for the same reason as they were included among the great powers of the late 19th century. Although being Christian would make it how much easier pill to swallow for westerners.
 
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