An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Here's an updated world map I made. Italy is definitely more based on speculation so take it with a grain of salt. Criticism as always is welcome
Edit: Also gonna do a rework of the Triunes to reflect it not being a single unified sate when i get home from work
Who is in the La Plata/Argentina region?

Also, kind of odd that no one has grabbed Florida yet as the Spanish colonized (lightly) very early OTL.
 
Who is in the La Plata/Argentina region?

Also, kind of odd that no one has grabbed Florida yet as the Spanish colonized (lightly) very early OTL.
I don't remember the name but B444 mentioned it in the update where the Mexicans were doing their conquest of the Incas.
I feel like florida would be easy pickings for Arles if the Ocean faction is able to gain some more headway
 
Who is in the La Plata/Argentina region?

Also, kind of odd that no one has grabbed Florida yet as the Spanish colonized (lightly) very early OTL.
I think that was spurred by searching for the fountain of youth. Florida isn't necessarily a greatly desirable piece of land so without that myth urging exploration it's reasonable to be somewhat abandoned. Even the Spanish only lightly settled there.
 
I wonder if Arles will try to Grab Louisiana since they don't really have any major rivals in the Caribbean. It would be interesting to see Mexico enact a pseudo monroe doctrine and fight back against encroaching european settlement although I'm not sure they would be able to project themselves far enough to do anything major
 
Part of the change in the update to the new system. Ian is getting a fair bit of blowback on it, nothing settled for sure yet. check the help thread for the debate.
 
Looking into the map @Frame made (btw thank you very much for it) made me wonder how will Americas look in the 19th and 20th centuries with decolonisation and other things.
I could see the Triunes colony becoming more divided based on language with English north and French south, if I'm not mistaken. Mexico, as it looks, is destined to become uber long Chile, from California to OTL Chile. OTL Oregon, British Columbia and Alaska couldbe divided between Russia and Japan.
But it makes me wonder why Lotharingians didn't start any mainland colonies yet?
And who is that in the northern Amazon region? It doesn't look as any European colony, at least by looking into colour.
 
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I don't see the Central American and South American (to use the OTL terms) portions of the Mexican Empire remaining unified longterm. Culture, language, geography etc. Maybe the dynasty could spin off a cadet branch or two in the Andes territories.
 
And so King Ferdinand approves an expedition to reinforce Spanish holdings there and to wage war against the Romans beyond the line. It will be the greatest Latin armament dispatched to the east in history at that point.
Just thought about this, but did the armada stop by in Africa to teach the corsairs a lesson first? Would be beneficial for them to grab a few supply stations otw too.

The 1300s had also seen the rise of English vernacular literature which is still going strong three centuries later. While many French texts sell in English bookshops, English texts outnumber them over three to one. While a wealthy wool merchant, noble, or cleric may go and see the latest French opera, they will the next week go and see the newest English play.
Is there any diffusion of English culture (minimal perhaps) in the opposite direction?

Another common thread is religion. Bohmanism has been spreading not only in Lotharingia but also in Scotland, and in the latter Bohmanism is often viewed as an act of defiance and assertion of Scottish identity against the staunchly Catholic Malmo. In 1635, at least half of Edinburgh is Bohmanist, and the Earls of Mar, Douglas, Angus, and Argyll all are Bohmanist.
Do those regions have their own national Bohmanist churches? If not, are they under the heavy influence of Triune clergy?

The Kingdom of Ireland is in a similar setup, with an Irish peerage, Parliament, and Lord Lieutenant, although none of them are viewed as impressively as English or, better yet, French equivalents. The Triune monarchs generally find the Irish Parliament easier to manage than the English as the Anglo-Irish and Gaelic Irish rarely get along, making it easy for the crown to divide and rule.
Do any of the two Irish factions like the northern English and Scottish more compared to the French?

Furthermore while all Puritans share the belief that the official Bohmanist Church is too Catholic, the various Puritan groups do vary in their beliefs, with northern English and Scottish Puritans falling closer together in their beliefs.
Seems like fertile ground for alt-Reformation 2.0

I think you'd more likely see an autonomous Northumbria/Danelaw and either an independent, or vassal in England, a return to the days of Wessex and Mercia vs the Rest.
Or maybe Northern England will be the Northern Ireland/Balkans of OTL, massive outburst during TTL's version of The Troubles and a variety of perennial problems thereafter.

We'll probably see a Triune civil war but I don't think any breakaway state is survivable.
They may have a shot if they time their rebellion right. Either when the Germans/Lotharingians rebel too or a foreign power offers to intervene on behalf of them.

I wonder if Arles will try to Grab Louisiana since they don't really have any major rivals in the Caribbean.
Maybe the Spanish too. Their colonization has been very lackluster compared to OTL for some reason.

OTL Oregon, British Columbia and Alaska couldbe divided between Russia and Japan.
For that, the Japanese need to begin their exploration efforts soon. I wonder if Hokkaido and Sakhalin have been colonized.

I could see the Triunes colony becoming more divided based on language with English north and French south, if I'm not mistaken.
Alt-civil war between a different north and south? Wonder if the institution of slavery is going to have any part in this.

I don't see the Central American and South American (to use the OTL terms) portions of the Mexican Empire remaining unified longterm. Culture, language, geography etc. Maybe the dynasty could spin off a cadet branch or two in the Andes territories.
They need really good leaders to pull off a Triune. Definitely a new capital to compromise between the two halves. Depends how much Avignon has succeeded in their missionary activities too.
 
Same way the Mongols did with trampling royalty in a carpet avoided spilling royal blood. Less about the actual death and more about the physical gushing, spilling, of blood. Because maces rarely resulted in deep open wounds not much, if any, blood resulted. Very much letter and not spirit of the law.
I get your point, although I think this should’ve ended with an angry St. Peter at the pearly gates asking “how effing stupid do you think I am?”

It always amazes me how much of a sheer demographic advantage France had over all its competition up to the late nineteenth century. If it wasn't for it's over-powerful vassals and perennial money problems, and the more than occasional anti-French coalitions, it very well could have remade an European Empire.

So is France now more reliable of a income source for the crown? I remember reading that one of the reasons England could go toe to toe with France was that while a good tax season for France would wipe the floor with England's England often had a higher average in yearly tax receipts due to tax evasion and poor administration in France which often resulted in years of underpayment to the military, always a bad thing.
Revolutionary/Napoleonic France pretty well showcases the kind of beast early modern France could be without all the ancien regime issues holding it back. It’s rather telling that the Bourbons, even at their most reactionary, never considered going back to the pre-revolutionary provincial scheme but kept the revolutionary one.

The English Parliament has the annoying habit of insisting that English money be spent on English interests, which is a problem if you want to, say, fund the Army of Lorraine. Plus with the Triune monarch usually south of the Channel, it’s harder to influence Parliament for said Triune monarch than the OTL ruler of England. France is just more reliable and importantly pliable, and even if it is pound-for-pound less financially organized it’s just so much bigger than England that it more than compensates.

And thus begins the path to the War of British secession.
Thus be the seeds planted.

I won't lie, I love the idea of the Triunes collapsing and the Atlantic Isles being part of the Empire of All the North. It fits with an idea of a split Europe.

EoAtN in the North, Roman in the South East, Spainish in the SW, Russian in the East, and (currently) Bohemian in the Centre. Throw in the potential of a collapsed Triunes as a sort of Anti-Emperor, held in place by the HRE and Arles and you've got a Europe with a robust political division, a strong role for a reorganised Germany.

Though the EoAtN would certainly be a peril for Germany, unless they partnered up with each other to contain the Triunes, which would then lead to an interesting situation with Arles partnered with Germany and the EoAtN to stay free of the Triunes too, but also to contain the Romans. Imagine, after all of this, a Roman-Triune alliance that makes sense Geopolitically (if Arles goes Anti-Roman).
If the Triunes collapse it looks more likely we'll get an independent Britain that may or may not include Ireland, rather than an England grafted onto the EAN.
I think you'd more likely see an autonomous Northumbria/Danelaw and either an independent, or vassal in England, a return to the days of Wessex and Mercia vs the Rest. Might be that the Triunes keep that part of England in a peace, but based on the update, it sounds like the former Danelaw might well align with the EAN in exchange for local autonomy. It'll be a huge geopolitical win for EAN if they get it, because there is a LOT of coal in those areas. In fact it would effectively double to triple the potential scale of coal production for the EAN. I'm sort of loving the idea of a Pan-North Sea Steamship Fleet, with Calais, the Shetlands, and Copenhagen acting as effectively the naval guards of a North Sea Mare Northstrum
Yeah, northern England has absolutely no interest in joining the EAN. They’d stop being a neglected imperial periphery and become…a neglected imperial periphery. New boss, same as the old boss. No thanks.

Plus England has a population comparable to the rest of the EAN all by itself. Not exactly vassal material.

Nice, the Kingmaker enters the fray. That should prove a nice distraction to the Triunes.
King’s Harbor is not going to like the Kingmaker.

The only problem I see is that they will have a hell of a time maintaining independence if they get it. If the Triunes maintain a hold in Southern England and Ireland then it just requires one bad ruler for them to be reconquered.
I think y'all missed the part where Scotland is getting tired of EAN and is becoming increasingly Bohamist. I'm seeing the most likely road as Northern England + Scotland as an independent power with questions as to Southern England and Ireland.
I did see that but almost makes their position worse, Scotland and Northern England probably have three million inhabitants max against the four to five million of Southern England and the fifteen+ million of France.
If the Triunes keep southern England, an independent North England even if united with Scotland won’t last that long. It’d be far too easy for the Triunes to regroup and march back in. A successful English secession that has a chance of sticking requires putting the Channel between them and the Triunes.

What exactly would this state be called? Britannia? Albion? CAMELOT?

I also suspect that such a state forming will sooner than later result in the Triple Monarchy losing Southern England, either to conquest or succession. They’ll probably retain all of Ireland given France’s likely greater ability to project power ITTL.
Northumbria.
A north England + Scotland would be a greater Northumbria.

Whats going on with Andorra? Have they been swollowed up by Arles or Aragon?
They got swallowed up. I dislike dealing with microstates, particularly on maps.

London is mostly loyal to the crown. We'll probably see a Triune civil war but I don't think any breakaway state is survivable.
The only way an English breakaway state works is if it gets all of England. A partial England might last for a little while, depending on how occupied the Triunes are elsewhere, but that’s it.

Right, I've been lurking this thread for five years, maybe more. It has been a lot of fun. Definitely my favourite nerdy hobby. Thanks B444!



Really, Richard Neville? Are we gonna get a kingmaker?
Thank you. 

Funny thought, assuming the Yi Dynasty in all its collective non-wisdom tries booting all the Christian Orthodox converts out of Korea, what do the Romans call them? Certainly not “Kauriote” given the associations with Marco Polo, and consequently Venice.

Given the fascination for all things Roman (and D3 having a bit of a fetish for Asian culture and pupu platters) I expect future Imperial documents to pull from Simocatta and refer to future Korean mercs as “Mukriotai” or the like.

Also, there have been, what, three Emperors by the name of Demetrios? I sincerely hope we get to see the 10th of that appellation so we can finally see a Roman Emperor named “DMX”.


I totally fucking forgot about that. Zounds, any war of English Secession is NOT going to end well for any
That'd depend on how syncretic the Koreans turned out. The reason that the Yi Dynasty killed all the Christians was due to the converts sticking to the parts of Christian doctrine that said that Kings come second to God and that Confucian rites and ancestor-worship rituals are all heathen idol worship. That made the lot appear disruptive and SUPER treasonous to the royal court.

We could see the ruling Dynasty (not the Yi, since they came to power after the POD) operate on a more orthopractic, pluralistic model a la the Chinese instead, which is to say that people can worship anything as long as they paid their taxes, stayed loyal to the government, and followed the Law. If the Orthodox missionaries take the Jesuit Ricci's stance that folk religions are all socio-political in nature then their converts will fit into Korea just fine.

Dunno how well that meshes with mainstream Orthodox Christianity. The conversion of Japan indicates that they'll just spawn an Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Korea that's open to Confucian/Buddhist rituals though.
I’m planning on Korea being a lot more open to the outside world, unlike the Hermit Kingdom of OTL. As for Korean Orthodox, if they got numerous enough they’d likely just create an Autocephalous Church. Prior to that though, they may be considered part of the Japanese Orthodox Church. Geographically it makes sense, plus Japanese would be more familiar with and willing to work with the cultural constraints Korean Orthodox would face.

The Triunes will be the victims of their own success. When this war is over, initially a lot of funding will be needed to restore the conquered territories. I guess that projects in England and Ireland (or at least in Northern England) will be underfunded or cancelled already. Add to that the increased weight of the "continental" part of the Triune realm and you have a recipe for rebellion. All it takes is a less than average monarch, or a more than average rebellion leader . However, without support from the outside, I don't think a state comprising of Northern England and Scotland is viable. If however all of England rallies behind the rebellion then things could be different, taking into consideration the fact that England dominates the Triune navy.
Finally, there is the colonies parameter . The colonies are dependent on the navy for growth (more immigrants) and trade. Maybe in the case of a Civil War they would choose to side with those controlling the Navy. And their increased vulnerability would tempt some other powers like the Spanish to take advantage of that.
There will definitely be an explosion in the Triple Monarchy later in this century (1660s?). That’s set in stone, although the details are still up in the air. These are laying the seeds for that explosion, but it’s going to be a complicated affair. Nationalism, religion, trade interests, all will play a part and intertwine.

Who is in the La Plata/Argentina region?

Also, kind of odd that no one has grabbed Florida yet as the Spanish colonized (lightly) very early OTL.
I don't remember the name but B444 mentioned it in the update where the Mexicans were doing their conquest of the Incas.
I feel like florida would be easy pickings for Arles if the Ocean faction is able to gain some more headway
I think that was spurred by searching for the fountain of youth. Florida isn't necessarily a greatly desirable piece of land so without that myth urging exploration it's reasonable to be somewhat abandoned. Even the Spanish only lightly settled there.
Spain is in the La Plata region.

IOTL the first European colony in Florida was a group of French Huguenots. The Spanish massacred them and then set up their own colony there to prevent more Huguenots from showing up. That’s a very specific set of circumstances that can’t take place ITTL.

The mainland at this stage just isn’t very attractive compared to Caribbean real estate.

I wonder if Arles will try to Grab Louisiana since they don't really have any major rivals in the Caribbean. It would be interesting to see Mexico enact a pseudo monroe doctrine and fight back against encroaching european settlement although I'm not sure they would be able to project themselves far enough to do anything major
There isn’t any interest in Louisiana yet. Controlling the mouth of the Mississippi isn’t worth anything until trade goods start flowing down it, and that’s not the case here.

Mexico would take action against a European colony that was literally right on their doorstep, but they don’t have the ability to project serious power across Terranova. The Mexican Empire is huge but rugged and sparsely populated, with many recalcitrant and barely integrated native groups.

Looking into the map @Frame made (btw thank you very much for it) made me wonder how will Americas look in the 19th and 20th centuries with decolonisation and other things.
I could see the Triunes colony becoming more divided based on language with English north and French south, if I'm not mistaken. Mexico, as it looks, is destined to become uber long Chile, from California to OTL Chile. OTL Oregon, British Columbia and Alaska couldbe divided between Russia and Japan.
But it makes me wonder why Lotharingians didn't start any mainland colonies yet?
And who is that in the northern Amazon region? It doesn't look as any European colony, at least by looking into colour.
Lotharingia has New Ghent (OTL New Amsterdam) and some Caribbean colonies. But mainland colonies at this stage aren’t very attractive compared to Caribbean ones. The sugar islands are what brings in the money.

That would be the former Andalusi colony, which is now Spanish since the fall of Al-Andalus, although it gets special privileges that other Spanish colonies don’t. For example, Muslims can immigrate there, but not to other Spanish colonies.

Will all overseas possessions of Lotharingia be administered by England following the war?
It depends. The mainland colonies are proprietary, administrated by a corporation or an individual with a land grant. The trading factories in the east are commercial enterprises. The Viceroy of Sutanuti reports to Henri II in his capacity as King of France. The non-proprietary colonies have a royal governor, with that governor reporting either to King Henri of England or King Henri of France depending on where the initial impetus for colonization originated. So if an English expedition or English finances are responsible for taking Holding X, they’d get it, but they aren’t going to be granted it automatically.

I don't see the Central American and South American (to use the OTL terms) portions of the Mexican Empire remaining unified longterm. Culture, language, geography etc. Maybe the dynasty could spin off a cadet branch or two in the Andes territories.
They’re not going to stay unified long-term. I’m not sure how the breakup will happen, whether a violent revolution or some cadet branch taking over with a sort of Mexican Komnenoi family pact springing up afterwards.

Just thought about this, but did the armada stop by in Africa to teach the corsairs a lesson first? Would be beneficial for them to grab a few supply stations otw too.

Is there any diffusion of English culture (minimal perhaps) in the opposite direction?

Do those regions have their own national Bohmanist churches? If not, are they under the heavy influence of Triune clergy?

Do any of the two Irish factions like the northern English and Scottish more compared to the French?

Seems like fertile ground for alt-Reformation 2.0

Or maybe Northern England will be the Northern Ireland/Balkans of OTL, massive outburst during TTL's version of The Troubles and a variety of perennial problems thereafter.

They may have a shot if they time their rebellion right. Either when the Germans/Lotharingians rebel too or a foreign power offers to intervene on behalf of them.

Maybe the Spanish too. Their colonization has been very lackluster compared to OTL for some reason.

For that, the Japanese need to begin their exploration efforts soon. I wonder if Hokkaido and Sakhalin have been colonized.

Alt-civil war between a different north and south? Wonder if the institution of slavery is going to have any part in this.

They need really good leaders to pull off a Triune. Definitely a new capital to compromise between the two halves. Depends how much Avignon has succeeded in their missionary activities too.
Armada is heading to eastern waters. Most of the Spanish fleet is staying in home waters anyway because of logistics; they can deal with the corsairs.

English culture isn’t making any headway in France. It just doesn’t have the numbers or prestige.

Lotharingia and Scotland don’t have national Bohmanist churches since they aren’t officially approved faiths in those countries. As a result they are very much under the influence of Triune clergy that are responsible for the initial diffusion, with the Lotharingians taking after the French Bohmanists and the Scottish the English Bohmanists.

The Anglo-Irish lean more towards the English. The Gaelic Irish more towards the French.

Hokkaido and Sakhalin haven’t been colonized yet.
 
The English Parliament has the annoying habit of insisting that English money be spent on English interests, which is a problem if you want to, say, fund the Army of Lorraine. Plus with the Triune monarch usually south of the Channel, it’s harder to influence Parliament for said Triune monarch than the OTL ruler of England. France is just more reliable and importantly pliable, and even if it is pound-for-pound less financially organized it’s just so much bigger than England that it more than compensates.
You can somewhat get around the inflexibility of parliament, as medieval English kings did, by using the convocations. People often forget that England had the same three estate system as the mainland. The second estate, the clergy, was represented at a convocation in York or Canterbury depending on which archdiocese they served in. At convocation all clerical estates could vote to give the 'king's tenth' or 1/10th the income of their estates as assessed at the Taxatio Ecclesiastica in 1292 and, for three northernmost diocese, the Nova Taxatio of 1318. Convocations were always more willing to provide the king with taxes than parliament since most of the bishops held their position by Royal appointment and had a background in the English clerk staff. And this was before Anglicanism. Come 1535 Henry VIII ordered the Valor Ecclesiasticus to update the almost 250 year old document to more accurately give both the king's tenth and the owed tithes to him as leader of the church for 20% of their income from land, tithes, and offices. This document led directly to the dissolution of the monasteries to bring all their considerable income into royal hands.

What you have made here B444 with the clergy mostly of French stock and working in a pseudo-Anglican framework tells me that Triune monarchs of England will be pulling considerable money from taxes on church estates and tithes but won't have the same restrictions as with parliament on its use, just like OTL. I don't know how much it was expressed as pounds in 1535 but I do know where I can get the 1291 information to compare to parliamentary grants of a fifteenth and tenth when I get back to my computer.
 
I found it.

"The revenue of the clergy, including such portions of the property of the bishops as were not taxed with the property of the laity, amounted, spirituals and temporals together, to £210,644 9s. 9d., under the taxation of 1291. ... When Edward I in 1294 took a moiety of this, or £105,000, the exaction bore to the sum usually demanded about the same proportion as the tax on wool bore to the usual custom, but the demand was fully paid by the clergy, whilst the wool to a great extent escaped. In 1371 the clergy voted a sum equal to that granted by the laity, £50,000; and in 1380 half as much as the lay grant, 50,000 marks." William Stubbs, The Constitutional History of England in its Origin and Development, 3vols, 6th edn (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1903), Vol. II, 580.

A mark is worth 2/3rds of a pound so 50,000 marks is £33,333 6s. 8d.

In this section of his work Stubbs is trying to estimate total royal revenue. This type of work is not done often these days so he's one of the best sources, even if over a hundred years old. So here's some perspectives from the next page to show what these incomes translated to.

"From these data we may conclude that when the king would live of his own, and in time of peace, he had a revenue of about £65,000; that for a national object, or for a popular king, grants would be readily obtained to the amount of £80,000; and that under great pressure and by bringing every source of income at once into account, as much as £120,000 might be raised, in addition to the ordinary revenue."

Basically, during a time of war (what Stubbs calls a 'national object') the king could call forth around £185,000 from all sources of central revenue in England. This wouldn't count continental holdings and doesn't really show what the King was fully capable of mustering during a time of war. During such periods it was expected that the nobles who served him would pay for the upkeep of their own soldiers. Almost no royal revenue other than from the royal demesne and clerical estates was a land tax. Most wealth was derived from extracting income from land, which was put to use by the nobles and in wartime expected to be used to upkeep soldiers of those nobles while on campaign.

The Triunes are an early modern state but fundamentally taxation was the same until the civil war with only a few serious changes in the form of the introduction of a general subsidy during the reign of Henry VIII on land and goods at 20% and 13 & a third % respectively. That was a parliamentary tax and required consent of parliament, and pulled in around £100,000 during Henry's reign but the value of the subsidy was reduced to £80,00 by the end of the 16th century. As a subsidy and not general yearly taxation parliament was relatively unreliable as it needed consent of parliament. Elizabeth's first parliament gave her £160,000 pounds or so by granting her a Henrician-style subsidy as well as two fifteenths and tenths. That, is a lot of money for the Triune parliament to have spent on England but doesn't include the £20,000 that convocations would grant in addition, as they also paid the subsidy, and doesn't include a convocational grant of the king's tenth and the tithe which could triple that value and give some flexible income for Triune kings.

The English fiscal system changed dramatically as a result of the civil war, which has yet to happen but will, so much of this information will be thrown out the window once Cromwell happens.
 
Here's the updated map!
Man, i really hope prussia is able to avoid being gobbled up by russia. It's one of the most interesting states to pop up in this tl. Or if not they could at least live on through their possession in the carribean lmao
 

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I don't remember where I first read it (probably somewhere on this site) but someone once said "Joan of Arc didn't save the French from the English; she saved the English from the French."

Seems like a lesson the English ITTL are learning all too well.
 
What's the context?
The context as I understood it was that if the English had taken over the French OTL as they did ITTL they would have been "Francofied" to such a degree that their separate Englishness would have been subsumed by the much more populous French. As a result what makes England England would have been lost.
 
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